- Quick summary of the entire blog:
"The underlying premise for Tom Phillips' complaint is basically this: Young salespeople are being carefully groomed and trained to go out and spread demonstrable untruths among the British public in order to persuade them to pay over significant sums of money to a corporation. The transactions depend upon acceptance by individuals of certain "truth claims" which must be received on the basis of partial information presented. If members of the public were to be told the whole truth and still decided they would join up and pay up, that of course would be entirely legitimate. However, when the whole truth is deliberately concealed in order to project a false impression, and money exchanges hands, that is fraud... according to the 2006 Fraud Act, which is the relevant piece of legislation in this case." -Christopher Ralph (plaintiff in case of summons 2)
The media announcement
As is about to be or has just been reported in the media, Mormon Prophet and President, Thomas Monson was ordered on 31 Jan, 2014 to court and face allegations of fraud. He will reportedly receive two summons on this week his 47 East South Temple Street office in Salt Lake City.
According to the summons, Judge Elizabeth Roscoe in the Westminister Magistrate’s Court in London, England has issued Thomas Spencer Monson with 2 summons containing allegations of seven offences in contravention of Section 1 of the Elizabeth II Fraud Act 2006 .
(note: added the following paragraph)
Please understand, a magistrate has already reviewed the preliminary evidence (some described below) and found it worth making a trans-continent summons to a man at the head of a multibillion dollar US corporation. He must have seen a reason this was worth his time and the care it took to go through the case thus far.
The summons requires Monson to “appear before Westminster Magistrates' Court, 181 Marylebone Road, London, NW1 5BR on 14/03 2014 at 10AM in Courtroom 6 to answer the said information…”
The summons requires Monson to “appear before Westminster Magistrates' Court, 181 Marylebone Road, London, NW1 5BR on 14/03 2014 at 10AM in Courtroom 6 to answer the said information…”
Once Monson is processed by Westminister, the court will then almost certainly refer the case to Southwark Crown Court for further proceedings. The summons declares, “Failure to attend may result in a warrant being issued for your arrest.”
According to the Fraud Act 2006, the maximum penalty for the allegations contained in the summons is ten years imprisonment and a fine, for each offence. (See Section 3 (b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or to a fine (or to both).)
The case details
I apologize for the length of this blog, and that this format may not be optimal, but the case details are many.
Here are images of the summons:
click on either to zoom in.
The summons indicates that “Information has been laid by Thomas Phillips” to “Thomas Spencer Monson” and before the magistrate, as such:
begin quote--
That between 3rd February 2008 and 31stDecember 2013 dishonestly and intending thereby to make a gain for himself or another or a loss or risk of loss to another made or caused to be made representations to [NAME], which were and which you knew were or might be untrue or misleading and thereby induce the said [NAME] to pay an annual tithe to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, namely that
i) The Book of Abraham is a literal translation of Egyptian papyri by Joseph Smith.
ii) The Book of Mormon was translated from ancient gold plates by Joseph 'Smith is the most correct book on earth and is an ancient historical record.
iii) Native Americans are descended from an Israelite family which left Jerusalem in 600 B.C.
iv) Joseph and Hyrum Smith were killed as martyrs in 1844 because they would not deny their testimony of the Book of Mormon.
v) The Illinois newspaper called the Nauvoo Expositor had to be destroyed because it printed lies about Joseph Smith.
vi) There was no death on this planet prior to 6,000 years ago
vii) All humans alive today are descended from just two people who lived approximately 6,000 years ago
Contrary to section 1 of the Fraud Act 2006
--end quote
Two names were given in two summons as the parties to whom Monson made false representations: Stephen Colin Bloor and Christopher Denis Ralph.
Stephen Bloor is a third generation Mormon, a podiatrist who served as a Mormon bishop until he discovered the LDS Church gave many false representations. He penned a resignation as bishop and now writes a blog, campaigning for openness & honesty in the Mormon Church.
Christopher Ralph is a Mormon convert since 1971, who served in bishoprics, and in 2012 helped write open letters to the European Area Presidency, LDS First Presidency (Monson) and the quorum of the twelve apostles, on behalf of many troubled members in the UK. These letters were met with silence. Chris also was the first blogger to break the story behind Grant Palmer’s “undercover” Mormon General Authority.
Tom Phillips, the acting prosecutor, is a retired management consultant. A Mormon convert since 1969, he has served as a Bishop, Stake President and Area Executive Secretary. He received the unspoken and secret ordinance of the second anointing. He also served as the Area Controller for the British Isles and Africa as well as the Financial Director for the Church’s U.K. corporate entities.
The name of the magistrate who signed the summons is Judge Elizabeth Roscoe. I will try to find out more about her in time.
The relevant parts of the sections texts read:
Section 2 “Fraud by false representation”
(1)A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a)dishonestly makes a false representation, and (b) intends, by making the representation—
(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or (ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2)A representation is false if—
(a)it is untrue or misleading, and (b)the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
Section 3 “Fraud by failing to disclose information”
A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a)dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and
(b)intends, by failing to disclose the information—
(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
Evidence supporting fraud in violation Section 2 (fraud by false representation) is almost entirely historically or scientifically based doctrinal claims that Monson made, which appear misleading to encourage Mormon members to donate money based on false statements that have been shown by science, the media, academics and other institutions to be incorrect and perhaps even slanderous statements with the intent to defraud by encouraging donations to the church on the basis of the false statements. An example of one statement in the prosecutor’s case states that Monson has taught the Book of Mormon is a divine work given by God to Joseph Smith, and is “most correct book on earth, and an ancient historical record.” However, the prosecutor will argue that academics have shown that “the Book of Mormon has been shown to be a work compiled in the 19th century by Joseph Smith with or without the help of others.” And that “DNA evidence demonstrates overwhelmingly that the ancestors of Native Americans came from Siberia around 15,000 30,000 years ago. No trace has been found of Hebrews in either North or South America, and there's no archaeological evidence for any of the Book of Mormon people.”
The prosecutor argues in his case, “These are not statements of mere 'beliefs' or opinions or theories, they are made as actual facts and their truthfulness can be objectively tested with evidence, unlike religious claims and beliefs.” That the LDS prophet has “made statements of fact which are untrue and he knows, or should know, they are untrue” as an argument that he has perpetuated fraud on the British people with “The purpose … to facilitate the conversion of individuals to become members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to pay to said church 10% of their income on a continuing, permanent basis.”
Evidence supporting fraud in violation of Section 3 (Fraud by failing to disclose information) uses LDS church documents showing that they know certain statements are false but continue to teach them and encourage members to pay tithing. For example, the claim that the Book of Mormon is an ancient record about Hebrews filling the lands in ancient America can be disputed by DNA evidence, and the church has acknowledged they know about the evidence, but have not taught this to members.
[ blog note: I would like to know that the recent essay release on the Book of Mormon and DNA studies alters the equation here. The timing of the release, on 31 January coincides exactly with the date the Magistrate signed the order.]
The evidence for the claims of fraud are laid out by Tom Phillips, as “statements have been made verbally and also published in various forms, including but not limited to: Church manuals such as Gospel Principles (2011), Church magazines such as ‘The Ensign’, Talks by Church leaders, printed and broadcast by satellite and over the internet, Websites owned or operated by the Church.”
As the summons states, the following frauds are represented in the case. With these are a few additional notes from the prosecutor’s case, but do not represent the sum-total of the information to be laid out to the judge.
i) The Book of Abraham is a literal translation of Egyptian papyri by Joseph Smith.
[prosecutor intends to state that “all experts in Egyptology agree the “Book of Abraham” is not a translation of the papyri the Church has in its possession. There are no references to Abraham and Joseph and the interpretations of the facsimiles reproduced in the book are not true. The papyri are, in fact. common funerary texts found on countless Egyptian ‘mummies’. The Church leaders have been informed of these facts, yet still state it is a translation. Rather than admit their founder (Joseph Smith) lied about this matter, they deliberately and dishonestly repeat the falsehood in order to deceive their Church members and potential converts.”]
ii) The Book of Mormon was translated from ancient gold plates by Joseph 'Smith is the most correct book on earth and is an ancient historical record.
[prosecutor statement is given above, and also includes “Not only is there no evidence of such civilizations, there is abundant evidence that they did not exist. Certain of the animals and working materials, supposedly used by them, did not exist on the American continent at the time (600 B.C. to 400 A.D.).”]
iii) Native Americans are descended from an Israelite family which left Jerusalem in 600 B.C.
[prosecutor: “anthropology and DNA denote Native Americans are of Asian origin and came to America, some 15,000 to 30,000 years ago. No trace of Israelite DNA has been discovered in the study of Native American peoples.”]
iv) Joseph and Hyrum Smith were killed as martyrs in 1844 because they would not deny their testimony of the Book of Mormon.
[prosecutor: “they died in a gun battle while incarcerated in jail on charges of treason against the state of Illinois. It had nothing to do with their defence of the Book of Mormon and Church historians know that.”]
v) The Illinois newspaper called the Nauvoo Expositor had to be destroyed because it printed lies about Joseph Smith.
[prosecutor: “the claims made about Joseph Smith, in the newspaper, are true i.e. he taught and practised plural marriage (polygamy) and he was ordained a king.”]
vi) There was no death on this planet prior to 6,000 years ago
[prosecutor: “there has been death of living organisms on this planet for billions of years.”]
vii) All humans alive today are descended from just two people who lived approximately 6,000 years ago
[prosecutor: “anthropology, history and DNA studies prove this to be impossible. Our earliest common female ancestor is considered to have lived about 150,000 years ago.”]
The prosecutor makes a case of general dishonesty against Monson, highlighting his education and ability to know the answers and facts contradicting his false representations, saying: “He has received formal education to masters degree level and has also received honorary doctorates. He is well educated beyond the level at which an ordinary person would or should know the representations are false.”
The prosecutor outlines the following cases of dishonesty with little detail (as yet provided):
- · Found guilty on election fraud (proposition 8 in CA,USA)
- · Holland lied to BBC interviewer
- · LDS Church has been reported and accused of tax evasion in the UK (more below)
The prosecutor makes the case for why Monson perpetuated this fraud: “The purpose of these untrue and misleading statements is to facilitate the conversion of individuals to become members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to pay to said church 10% of their income on a continuing, permanent basis. A second purpose is to mislead those individuals who are already members of the said Church, so that they will continue paying 10% of their income. This tithing income is paid in the United Kingdom to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Great Britain), an unlimited liability company and registered charity with its registered office in England. The President of the two corporation sole shareholders of this U.K. company is Thomas Spencer Monson.”
For more information about the corporation sole and its structure with articles of incorporation, see my blog from 2012 with more details.
Addionally, the prosecutor argues that non-Mormon or non-paying Mormon family members “cannot attend the wedding ceremony unless they too are members of the Church and, among other conditions, pay a full tithe. If they have been amiss is paying, but are willing to pay the arrears of the past year, they may be allowed. Therefore, they have to pay to attend their child’s (sibling’s) wedding... Thus, they take away a normal parental right and then charge you money if you want the ‘benefit’ they have taken from you. Nobody would agree to such a regime unless they believed the false representations to be true.”
The information supplied to the court by the prosecutor claims, “As an example of the financial gain to the Church (and, therefore, loss to the individuals making the contributions), since the implementation of the Fraud Act 2006 (i.e. January 2007) the donations received in the U.K. in consequence in part at least of these false representations amount to approximately £224 million, according to the accounts filed with the Charity Commission from 2007 to 2012 inclusive . The current year (2013) could be a further £33 million making a total of £257 million.”
Here is a table pulled from the UK Charity Commission website under the “Financial history” section.
click on image to zoom in
The previous year, I had reported these figures in this blog, just after reporting on the Mission President Handbook release.
Significant detail about the church’s activities in the UK can be downloaded from the commission’s website under the “View accounts” section.
The summons was signed 31 January 2014 and issued under section 1 of the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980, on receiving a formal Statement (described in that section as an ‘information’) alleging that someone has committed an offence, the court may issue—
(a) a summons requiring that person to attend court; or
(b) a warrant for that person’s arrest, if—
(i) the alleged offence must or may be tried in the Crown Court,
(ii) the alleged offence is punishable with imprisonment
Now, my personal take on this:
I applaud and support Tom in trying to call out the LDS leaders on perpetuating fraud. I believe it is true. I believe they know more than they are willing to teach to the average member. I believe the Topic Essay articles addressing issues that questioning members have raised recently (such as with Christopher Ralph’s letter or the Swedish Rescue fiasco) show that they have been aware of these problems for many years. It is interesting that they are now dealing with these issues, just about the time Tom started filing his fraud case last year, and that the DNA essay arrived the day the summons were sent.
However, I approach all of this with skepticism on its success. The LDS Church is very wealthy, retains full-time about half of the 150+ lawyers at McConkie and has a team of lawyers in its own legal department. You can bet they will throw their full effort into defending against these charges and try to get even the summons dismissed. The LDS Church has considerable political weight in the US, with church members occupying positions on the judicial bench at every level in both state (UT) and federal branch. They have church members holding 7% of the US Senate, including the senate majority leader, the ranking member of the finance committee and more. This from a church whose US membership is just a hair below 2% and whose active members might peak 1% of the US population. That is a lot of political, judicial and legal might for such a fraction of a minority of the population.
Furthermore, I believe no judge, UK or US, will want the responsibility to set a precedent of finding a church leader as powerful as even the small church’s Mormon Prophet guilty of fraud through "ideological" deceit. To most eyes outside of the LDS Church, this case will look mostly ideological, and that sets it up for problems because no judge wants to preside over a jury conviction against free exercise of religion. At least, that would be the public perception, even if the fraud claims are about false representations made on facts of science and history, and not just about beliefs. But the public will not understand such nuances. The LDS Church PR machine will ensure that it appears victimized by ex-members and “anti-Mormons” who challenge its basic rights to free exercise.
(note: added a change below)
Now, if it goes to trial there Tom has some confidence 12 U.K. jurors will convict. He believes the evidence is overwhelming and Monson will not be credible to the jurors on the stand. The question I maintain, however, is whether the responsibility of this precedent is too high for even a liberal judge in the UK or other parts of Europe.
Now that said, Scientology has had difficulty with fraudulent court cases in Germany and found responsible for unethical if not criminal behavior based on a few ridiculous beliefs used for extracting money from believers.
Let's think about this. If you own a patch of land and you make mythical claims about leprechauns and unicorns roaming its pastures and you can convince a potential buyer to pay far more money than its true value based on obvious fraudulent claims, the court will cite you with charges to defraud with false representation. In effect, the Mormon Church has made claims that are used to increase the value of afterlife mansions and treasures in heaven, requiring temple attendance to be considered a worthy and saved member. Attending the essential temple ceremonies in turn requires one to be worthy in accepting beliefs/teachings, the near infallibility (sustaining) of prophets, tithing and donations. The teachings and the claims of the prophets who one is required to sustain are what the fraud case examines--the claims that can be verified accurately with modern science and history to show as completely fraudulent.
How is that really much different than selling someone pristine homesteads in Florida swamplands with the claim they are waterfront property? You hear the sales pitch, and if you buy without verifying the claims, you can still sue for fraudulent claims.
I know, the sacred untouchable free exercise of religion is a high tower. When a religion can claim any old theory as part of its religion, including particle physics, archaeology, astronomy and more--all of which are total bunk in modern science, shouldn't it be held to the same standard as Florida swampland homesteaders?
(And yes, Mormons make claims about spirit elemental particles, archaeology of ancient America, kolobian astronomy and energy sources...)
However, what Tom (primarily) and the MormonThink team (supportive) have done is truly amazing. It forces the issues into the open record of the legal field, and may even go to trial long enough that Monson’s legal team will have to clarify on the record the answers to these troubling issues. No more will the answers come from quietly released essay articles that are not dated, time stamped, authored or authorized by any names. The nameless, dateless and non-authoritative nature of the article responses to issues could be made a matter of legal and public record. That is a huge win, even if Monson is completely unlikely to be convicted on any counts of fraud.
Monson’s age is a problem. He’s in his late 80s (86?) and a good legal team can make the case he is unable to stand trial for health reasons. However, that is not a concession the LDS Church PR machine wants to make. They don’t want to represent their president as incompetent. Rest assured, the legal team has many other tricks to use first before pulling the senile card. And I’m betting against a trial even happening because of the amount of legal weight behind Monson.
Something better?
Now, if there were a financialsmoking gun with documents showing clear fraud, then the case could make trial and even possibly conviction. Financial fraud is much clearer and more easily convicted than a fraud based on seemingly ideological issues.
In December 2012, I reported receiving a copy of the Mission President’s Handbook from a church insider. This created quite a stir. And even the Intellectual Property LDS legal representative affirmed under penalty of perjury that it is a legitimate copy. Recall, in the MP Handbook Appendix B is detailed how the Mission Presidents were to keep payments to them quiet and not report them to tax authorities. Quote:
"do not share information on funds you receive from the Church with those who help you with financial or tax matters ... never represent in any way that you are paid for your service. ... do not list any funds you receive from the Church, regardless of where you serve or where you hold citizenship.”
Mission presidents are told that they “should not open a local bank account for personal funds received from the Church . . . especially if the account would produce interest (and thus raise income tax questions).”
Instead of allowing mission president control over their personal funds, “a joint personal bank account at Church headquarters is established for you and your wife.”
The handbook advises the mission president that “any funds reimbursed to you should be kept strictly confidential and should not be discussed with missionaries, other mission presidents, friends, or family members.”
Here are the specific reimbursements dispensed out of the payment the LDS Church deposits in the Mission President's account.
“While you are serving as mission president, the Church reimburses the necessary living expenses for you, your wife, and your dependent children.”
These “necessary” living expenses include:
- - Rent or lease or house payment,
- - Food,
- - Clothing,
- - Household supplies,
- - Family activities,
- - Dry cleaning,
- - Personal long-distance calls to family,
- - Modest gifts (for example, Christmas, birthdays, or anniversary),
- - Utilities,
- - Telephones,
- - Internet connection,
- - Gardening, (employed gardener)
- - Repair or replacement of household items,
- - Part-time housekeeper,
- - Part-time cook,
- - One mission automobile assigned exclusively to the mission president,
- - Other assigned mission vehicles (used by the wife or licensed dependents for“shopping, taking children to school, or other needs.)
- - Automobile insurance, registration and taxes on assigned vehicles,
- - Medical expenses (dental, eye care and medically necessary orthodontia),
- - One round trip fare for each child under age 26 to visit the parents’ mission,
- - Elementary and secondary school expenses for tuition, fees, books, and materials,
- - Undergraduate tuition at an accredited college or university,
- - Financial support for children serving full-time missions
While most of those sound reasonable, many are seen as taxable, especially in the UK. According to their tax authority, document SA012M from Her Majesty’s Revenue Customs (HMRC)on tax rules for “ministers of religion”:
Ministers are to report as income “fee” and “contractual payments” or any “gift or grants you receive because of your work”. They even ask the minister to declare “salary” or “stipend” in “box 2”. The stipend received by mission presidents makes it clear they are considered employees in the UK, and the amounts paid to them or reimbursed to them as a 'living allowance' is a salary. Add to that the cash equivalent of the benefit of housing, cars, medical insurance, college fees, cook, family travel etc. This needs to be "grossed up" and tax and employee national insurance contributions paid on it. Also the church as employer has to pay National Insurance Contributions (like US Social Security payroll tax) on the gross less a "lower earnings limit" at 13.8%. The church had in 2013 5 MPs in the U.K. (they used to have 8 in previous years). This kind of tax evasion has probably been going on for over 30 years. The amounts involved, plus interest and penalties will be in the millions of dollars.
Here then, is an estimate on Mission President "salary":
Food & Household Supplies £8,000
Clothing £4,000
Family Activities £3,000
Dry Cleaning, Personal long distance phone £1,000
Gifts - Christmas, birthdays, Anniversaries £2,000
Medical Insurance and other medical bills £6,000
Tuition Fees - school and university £3,000
Family Travel (from US) for under 26 y.o. £1,000
Utilities - heating, council tax etc. £4,000
Gardener and Cook £9,000
Mission costs if child serving mission
Term Life Insurance up to $100 per month £800
SubTotal £41,800
House taxable benefit at 4% (on £600K home) = £24,000
Car Benefit £5,000
Total = net pay £70,800
Employee's NIC = maximum of £4,430
£75 k grossed up = approximately £105,000
Employer's NIC at 13.8% of excess £13,722
Fraud can be reported, and now has been reported to the UK HMRC at their website. Tom Phillips, who reports that he worked as the financial director for LDS Church corporate entities has said concerning the unpaid taxes on Mission President account reimbursements and stipends:
" It was discussed at a First Presidency meeting with the Presiding Bishopric and they decided to continue not reporting and pay any fines when, and if, they were discovered. This is blatant tax evasion, a criminal activity in the UK. I never kept any documentary evidence but this hand book would be incriminating for them. "
(note: added the following)
Tom also tells me: "The tax evasion case will be brought by the government later this year. However Monson won't be charged personally with that. It will be a corporation and the penalty will be a fine. Monson can claim he left all that to his accountants. Also the size of the 2 cases $10m tax evasion vs $300m in tithing fraud. See the difference? On tax evasion he does not get prosecuted, the COP pays a fine. On fraud, if convicted, he goes to prison and could be ordered to pay tithing to victims and have hundreds of millions of church money confiscated.
" That is why I concentrated on the fraud case and just reported the tax evasion to HMRC. Fraud is the bigger and mote damaging issue. However, it is not a question of one or the other. Both cases are going forward."
(note: added the following)
Tom also tells me: "The tax evasion case will be brought by the government later this year. However Monson won't be charged personally with that. It will be a corporation and the penalty will be a fine. Monson can claim he left all that to his accountants. Also the size of the 2 cases $10m tax evasion vs $300m in tithing fraud. See the difference? On tax evasion he does not get prosecuted, the COP pays a fine. On fraud, if convicted, he goes to prison and could be ordered to pay tithing to victims and have hundreds of millions of church money confiscated.
" That is why I concentrated on the fraud case and just reported the tax evasion to HMRC. Fraud is the bigger and mote damaging issue. However, it is not a question of one or the other. Both cases are going forward."
This act won't probably do more than put a slow-down in their land grabs and power purchases. In a couple of months, it will be back to secret business as usual. With one difference: More of us will be watching and so will the media.
Don't be so sure that they will not be taken down significantly. Church of $cientology was strongly with legal protection but they have been forced to shut down operations in countries and be exposed as a cult. So I hope that the cult of Mormonism is exposed as fraudulent in many ways. Justice can be slow but it usually will win out in the end.
ReplyDeleteThe Church of Scientology also had several 'teachings' that were, by far, outlandish when compared to those of the LDS Church. Teachings aside, I would feel much safer living in a neighborhood saturated by LDS families than I would in the same circumstances but with Scientology families. ...food for thought.
DeleteScientology: Intergalalactic Alien Overlord Xenu exiles people to Earth.
DeleteMormons: Intergalactic Alien God casts away 1/3 of people, sends the other 2/3 to Earth.
Scientology: Xenu heads up the Galactic Federation, a coalition of 76 planets around larger stars.
Mormons: God lives on a faraway ruling planet called Kolob, with a lesser planet called Oliblish nearby.
Scientology: Xenu destroyed human life as we knew it by setting off atomic bombs inside volcanos.
Mormons: God destroyed all life on the planet by flooding it with water. But it's okay, he gave us rainbows.
Scientology: People that got exiled and blown up (no bodies) seek to possess ours as thetans. But it's ok, we can pay money for a Thetan enema.
Mormons: The 1/3 that got exiled have no bodies and seek to possess ours as demons. But it's ok, we too can pay money to learn how to crush the heads of the demons.
Oh, and Quakers live in colonies on the moon.
Tell me again about outlandish?
-JK
This is not the first cover up by the Mormon Church. The mountain meadow massacre in 1857 was by Mormon militia. The Mormon church first said it was Indians. They keep retelling the story so that now it is Indians and some whites living in the area. Problem is a mormon church bishop admitted that a local mormon militia was involved.
DeleteIs this why they delayed the release of the DNA and the B of M essay until just last Friday?
ReplyDeleteThere's no story here. Another attack on a religion that one doesn't agree with. It sure would be interesting to see what good would come if you would spend the time you dedicate to this nonsense, and put it to better use volunteering for a non profit, or getting further education. Good thing your freedom as speech is still protected.
ReplyDeleteTax evasion is how they got Capone and several mafia bosses decades ago. Don't be too quick to dismiss.
DeletePut your money where your mouth is, Matthew, and state specifically where you disagree.
Deletewe to stand up Matthew
DeleteThank you. Well said!! I served a mission in London and loved the people and the country. If you do not like the religion nor a culture of another group of people maybe the world would be better served by you promoting a better way of life and and trying to live by your version of gods laws and growing it into something better than negative ways. Think and work toward the Positive things not Satins (my way or no way) teachings. We have all been given free agency by Gods laws to choose for our selves. Thank you for reminding me how important it is.
DeleteAll I know as well mathew is that this article is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard....sounds liike the story of Saul/paul to me. People pay 10% to to provide service to others....do.people know that the LDS church is one of the biggest humanitarian aids in the WORLD...and its not because we have to either, we like to....try it out, and tell me you dont receive gifts from above.
DeleteYou sound like Bagdad Bob.
Delete6:04, you're claim that the church is one of the world's biggest contributors to humanitarian aid is completely false. I believe the last figure I saw regarding humanitarian aid contributions from the church equaled about .07 percent of the church's income. You are ill informed.
Delete*your
DeleteAMEN brother...
DeleteQuit being a pussy when talking to David, if you are going to criticize him don't go by Anonymous.
Delete-Anonymous
I think that it's less about it being a different religion, but they take these things as facts and not religious beliefs. You could say it as religious beliefs, and be fine with it, but they teach blatant lies as facts.
DeleteI'm not anonymous, call me Korihor
DeleteHere we go again. The standard bearers bearing their mormon myths about the Church and it's charity, never once thinking to do any research for themselves. It's all up on the lds.org website. They DO account for intangibles there and by looking at the final amounts of charity giving, it looks like a lot of money. Problem is that amount is a total of something like 20 years of "charity." When you divide that amount by 20, then factor in the membership of the church over those years, you wind up with something less than about 2 bucks for every man/woman/child who is a member. All this nonsense about how the Church is charitable during natural disasters is also nonsense. They don't pull money out of the tithing coffers, nor do they use fast offerings...they go out and solicit more money from the members to cover it. Compare the mormon charity to the charity of other religions and it's almost a joke. Oh, and as far as all that time donated by people to fill the bishop's storehouses with food and more...yes, that time and money does go to the poor, But only IF you're a member and IF you can stand to hear about how you need to show up to church. As for me? I'd rather starve.
I couldent agree more, I am also a member and know that my life has been full of blessings which you seem to forget. You have that same choice, but please don't try to make our faith a bad thing, my life is full of love of the Saviour and his teachings, or are you saying he is a lie as well? Hope that you see the error of your ways .I live my life as a Latter day Saint .I for one will stand in defence of our beliefs,
DeleteIs this a serious comment? Freedom of choice does not mean you get to go wherever you want and do whatever you want.
DeleteYou comment is like saying that I've taken away your choice because I didn't let you in my house to use my bathroom. It's absurd.
Your sister has free choice too, and chose to get married somewhere you couldn't go.
This who comment section is ridiculous on both sides of the fence. The church is free to try and convince people to join, and non-members are free to try and convince people to leave. This is the beauty of having the freedom to choose.
Church members: Whining because these guys don't like your church is pointless. Believe it or don't, but you have no right to get mad because other people don't.
anti-church commenters: Do you really not see how attacking the beliefs at the very core of how a person chooses to live their life would offend them and provoke an emotional response? You want to tell them why their beliefs are wrong? Maybe a little patience is in order, because you are reinforcing their beliefs when you start the conversation off by insulting their entire life.
David -- I think it would be a good idea to go back and translate the money figures into dollars, so that most of your readers could see those significant amounts in dollars. You wouldn't have to be exact to the penney, but easy to translate the figures and put in parenthesis, i.e.224 million pounds, according to today's exchange rate is $365,620,438 (from caclculations at xe.com). The figures in U.S. dollars is significantly higher than might appear to readers at a glance.
ReplyDeleteAn attack on a religion or a defense of the people this "religion" (sic) harms and seeks to harm regularly? I too am glad the author's free speech is protected because he is doing most excellent work in shining the disinfecting light on all the shadows the LDS exploit. Plenty of people spoke just like you Matthew D during each and every single progression society has made and each and every time they were dead wrong. It was worth it!!
ReplyDelete... and thank all the Gods from pasta to the god of fraud (here's winking at you con man Smith!) that good men and women speak up even when told they shouldn't or that it's just a waste of time.
Or would you rather good men and women only speak up and invest their time in LDS approved ventures?
TBM take. This may have the effect of speeding up the last-day judgments. Something that will get the attention of even boneheaded supporters of MT and apostate DT.
ReplyDeleteI don't wish ill on anyone. I hope the best, but the Lord takes seriously how His prophets are treated.
"...how his prophets are treated..."
DeleteWhich Lord and set of Prophets would this be? This lord of yours can look a billion horrors in the eye and say "meh" but the notion of the most recent LDS CEO having to be somewhat accountable being the thing that ticks the Lord off just enough "to do something" sounds as ridiculous as Joseph Smith's many variations of his first God, Jesus, Angelic encounter or tales of XENU. I hope your lack of wishing ill extends to those who would be harmed in your hypothetical last days because as it seems, you appear to be quite passively okay with God doing the dirty work if it means someone will pay for taking the polish off of your given religious choices ... which is a hop skip and a jump away from you actively wishing harm on the rest of us.
I don't see any prophesying, seering, or revelating. God's probably not too concerned.
DeleteMaybe he should smite Tom Phillips and David Twede deaf and dumb like he did Korihor. But we all know that's silly fiction don't we. It's about time someone called out these hucksters.
DeleteHello, my name is Korihor, I'm still not a deaf and dumb mute.
DeleteLol...ok, this comment is so utterly ridiculous that I can hardly type while laughing. "How the people treat the Lord's profits...er...prophets???. So what you're saying is that the soul of a prophet is somehow worth more to God than the other average human being? Do actually see how ludicrous that statement really is? And how has Tommy Monson been treated badly? He gets his monthly stipend, travels like royalty, and I'll bet not a day has gone by without a decent meal that someone else cooked for him. The man lives in opulence. Compare that to the homeless and destitute who are actually looked down on and ridiculed. REALLY? Are you serious? Do you actually believe that those poor souls won't go to the front of the line in heaven and Tommy will somehow pull up front in his limo and expect to get ahead of them? Exactly what is it that makes you believe that you follow anything Christ said about the rich and the poor? Did you fall asleep while reading the New Testament? Man, the never ending absurdity of some mormons never ceases to amaze or amuse...lol.
Hey Korihor and everyone else that can't seem to stop hating on the LDS church,
DeleteJust shut your big trap. Obviously you aren't speaking to the prophet himself, so you can't be made deaf and mute, as was Korihor. Retard..
As for everyone else: If you don't like it so much why do you insist on trying destroy it?? And don't tell me that I just need to open my mind to the truth and I'll see how wrong all this is. First, define for me what truth is, and then maybe we'll get somewhere. But, oh wait, you can't. Truth is, in cases like these with people bashing on a religion, subjective. Even though, of course, the truth is that this is God's church on the Earth because of the organization of the Church-that was established primitively-you can't prove to me that this Church isn't true based on these allegations! It is subjective! Or, in other words, it is a matter of faith for those who believe, not proof! For you it is different.
Go ahead, call me pompous. One day you'll die; I'll die; everyone will die and then you'll want to kill yourself (after the resurrection of course) for having a brain the size of a goldfish that didn't function correctly enough for you to comprehend some of the most basic elements of our existence.
Until then bros,
Ryan Michael Gaines
P.S. Hmm, look at that. No cowardliness.
What a sick bully. Mormons make good bullies when you don't believe in their dogma. Korihor was a fictional character in the fictional BOM. Your prophets aren't really talking with GOD fool. faith is for people that can not reason rationally. What you know to be true can be proven false in court. Is that so frightening? NO SUCH THING AS GOD. MEN ARE LIARS, and you've swallowed the canary whole.
DeleteWhy not label this as it is. You have just attacked Christianity as a whole. Faith is just the beginning. Faith is every bit as provable as science yet it takes actually having faith to get to the proof. Something those who have no faith will never able to obtain because they do not follow the scientific steps to obtain it.
DeleteCourts? Really? Courts are run by Men which you have already labeled as liars. Which means you can't take anything proven in a court run by Men to be true. You can't even take Science to be true since they change their minds every year. Something true this year is "proven", yet next year another Man will prove it to have been false and so the circle continues.
All things mentioned as "proofs" against what we believe on Faith were proven by Man which taking your definition are Liars and thus should be held to the standard of a lie since their proof will change next year as it always does.
joe smith and tommy monson,,both profits god of fraud,liers robbers thieves..a good mormon is 6 feet under the ground in a box
DeleteHmmm. I'm surprised that anyone took this to court. But I am glad and thankful that someone found the courage and has the expertise to file charges. Thank you for keeping us informed on the developments.
ReplyDeleteOutstanding...
ReplyDeleteHaven't even touched on "public benefit" under UK charity commission definitions.
Top drawer Gentleman.
If this fails in court, we can chalk it up to persecution. If the President of the Corporation of the COJCOLDS loses, expect a revelation. The church survived the Edmunds-Tucker Acts and seizures before it had a refined PR machine and exclusive Law Firm so I'm pretty sure it'll get through this either way.
ReplyDeletePeople pay tithing because they want to, not because they have to. Just because you don’t believe in something doesn't make it real. I'm sure there are just as many, if not more allegations you could have against the Catholic Church. Honestly this church gets so much more crap with people trying to destroy it than any other religion. Even more than Amish or Muslims around the world. Let people believe what they want, if they want to pay 10% of their money to the church, let them. They believe that it can and will bring them blessings, and who's to say that it won't? For every person that grumbles about tithing, there are a thousand more who are grateful for it. Also, for trying to use "science" to prove that what the Mormon prophet has said is wrong, isn't going to work. Do you really think that God will let one of his servants be proved wrong? Better yet, do you think that you can out science God? I don't think so. He is the master chemist and bioengineer. He created all of us and didn't just poof us into existence. Believe what you want, but don't try and take down a religion who practices teachings that don't believe. It's not right. Besides, why aren't you complaining about the government who punishes you if you don't pay your taxes. They steal billions of dollars from every kind of person. Guess what happens to you in the Mormon church if you don't pay your tithing; nothing! My advice would be to quit trying to start problems. Let people live how they want, and whatever happens is up to God. He directs everything and you won't be able to win against him.
ReplyDeleteLol, must be a different mormon church. Tithing is a temple recommend question. It's a requirement to baptize your kids and participate in priesthood ordinances, get married, etc.
DeleteIt's hardly voluntary. If you don't pay full tithing you are cut off from the saving ordinances of the priesthood. I guess it's voluntary if you don't want eternal life or to ever get married.
Anyways, tithing isn't the only thing that's a requirement. You have to keep the other commandments as well. Tithing is somewhat unique to LDS though, as Jesus doesn't teach tithing in the bible (or book of mormon), so many people are offended that LDS have to pay money to take advantage of blessings of Jesus Christ.
"Do you really think that God will let one of his servants be proved wrong?"
DeleteYou should go read what the church just put out about Blacks and the Priesthood...Your own church admits that Brigham was wrong...So your argument is invalid
This is the most perfectly well-written statement, I couldn't agree more.
DeleteThese ridicules allegations remind me of all the ancient Prophets in the Bible whom the uneducated tried to persecute them....and what was the out come for them who believed in, and obeyed God?....they were blessed..
They didn't pay tithes in the Bible? It talks about tithing in Malachi 3. The whole law of Moses was predicated on offering sacrifices of your best livestock and such. Christian communities after Christ's death lived with all things in common (meaning they lived where they gave ALL to the church and all is a little more than 10%) Remember Ananias in Acts 5?? He kept back a small part of the money they received by selling a possession and God smote them for it. There is plenty of evidence that the Lord's church requires some kind of financial sacrifice. MOSTLY to keep us humble and willing to do hard things for Him, NOT because He or His church needs the money. And to the point about the temple recommend. If you don't believe it is God's will for you to pay it, you can't truthfully answer any of the other questions either and you don't honestly believe in the same concept of the afterlife so who cares for you?? I believe that ordinances done in the temple are valid and that they will bring me exaltation with God. If you don't believe that, so be it
DeleteRead Malachi 3 again, with the intent of discovering who the section is addressing. Sons of Levi refer to the priests in charge of accepting the sacrifies, incidentally.
DeleteHello, my name is Korihor, please don't be afraid. On the comment
Delete"Do you really think that God will let one of his servants be proved wrong?"
Well, uh yeah, I think God pretty much does let one of his servants be proved wrong...and wrong...again and again and again. Let me count the ways. The Mountain Meadows Massacre, Brigham Young stating that there were giant people living on the moon, Joseph Smith standing up and denouncing polygamy over and over only to find out years later he had over 30 wives, some of them already married, and some as young as 14 years old. Polygamy. Alcohol and Tobacco use among leaders long after the Word of Wisdom(?) was revealed. Apostles practicing polygamy AFTER it was publicly "abolished" by the church. Forget the Urim and Thumbim, Joseph actually used peepstones as he peered into a hat. 13 different versions by Joseph Smith on the first vision. The ONLY reason you are so naive is that you have been taught what to believe yet never took the time to exercise your own God given brain and look at all the documentation out there. Because you have been warned not to look...by who? The very same people who pump out the propaganda and try to write a prettier vision of history. Now why would they do that? I mean there has to be a motive right? How about 10 percent of your income? How about growing the numbers of the church for more 10 percenters? How about wealth, power, fame, and all the things Christ detested? Never mind, I'm talking to a wall of yet one more robot, pre-programmed on how to think, how to behave, what to wear, isolation from the world, a persecution complex. DANGER WILL ROBINSON...DANGER!
If you don't pay your tithing in the LDS Church you don't get a temple recommend; if you don't have a temple recommend you cannot do the temple works required to be worthy enough to make it to the Celestial Kingdom and become a god..Hence you are paying your way to heaven through your tithing.
ReplyDeleteHigher ordinances requires a great faith. No one forced you to enter the temple. No one was ever forced to pay their tithes. And JUST FOR CLARIFICATION, tithing is a commandment. All Christian religions do know of this. I just love the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! "WHILE THOSE WHO FIGHT AGAINST ZION WILL NEVER SUCH HAPPINESS KNOW."
DeleteTo the above. Apparently you don't love it enough to get the lyrics to your hymns right. You are combining two different lines from the same song. The lines are: "The wicked who fight against Zion, will surely be smitten at last." (Verse 2) and "While they who reject this glad message shall never such happiness know." (Verse 3)
DeleteA little free thinking would do you some good.
Ha ha! Thanks for the laughs.
ReplyDelete2 questions:
Do you believe that all tithes and contributions to religions should be considered defrauding? Last I checked, there's no scientific proof that Moses parted the Red Sea or that Jesus Christ performed miracles, so I want to make sure you're not promoting a double standard.
You make a bold claim that "Monson and his pals continue soaking good-hearted people for the benefits of their egos and to some extent, their wallets." What evidence do you have of anyone in Mormon church leadership enriching themselves from church member contributions? I'm not talking about stipends.
I think the difference is that there is abundant proof the book of mormon and book of abraham are not what the church claims.
DeleteBut more importantly, the lawsuit is about whether President Monson knows that they are not true and continues to publicly state that they are. That's the fraud. Knowingly misleading people. Sounds pretty hard to prove, but I guess we'll see.
If you don't think that they are soaking good hearted people for money why will they not prove other wise, every other church releases their financial statements and show the active members where they spend their hard earned money. I don't think their would be very many Mormons proud of their tithing going to a 5 billion dollar shopping mall and illegally purchasing the street in front of temple square connecting to the 5 billion dollar mall just to control the people on their property
DeleteDon't you think that if President Monson was receiving all the members Tithing that he would be living in a mansion instead of a modest Apartment? Some of the General Authorities leave high paying jobs to serve their callings. And the real-estate you speak of....the church has many successful business, one of them is real-estate, there are honest, well-educated folks heading those operations.
DeleteCan I get a "Hell yeah!" What a perfect birthday present that will be in March. To know the force behind your pain and suffering has to answer for its crimes.
ReplyDeleteToo bad this is fake...
DeleteNo secondary sources. Flimsy foundation. A way for the creators of this hateful site to get some false PR. Nice try though.
ReplyDeleteWow!! Why not sue the Anglican church for claiming Christ rose from the dead? Or, all Christian churches for that matter? Or Sue Islam leaders for claiming Muhammad saw a vision? Or, the Catholic church for claiming the Pope speaks for God? What about Christian Scientists views on healing? Are these all frauds? Should courts determine which religious claims are true? Think people!! A Court is not where we test religious ideologies. They are not equipped to do so and should not do so. Matters of faith are just that...matters of faith. Fortunately, in the U.S., Government cannot take over and tell religions what to teach thanks to the good old First Amendment. Maybe their is no religous freedom in the U.K. This just sounds like another baseless lawsuit that should be tossed.
ReplyDeleteThe Anglican church does not require you to pay them before you can be saved. Nor do the Catholics, nor the Muslims. Nor do they base their doctrines on specific historical assertions that have been, as for Mormonism, proven false.
DeleteChristian Scientists are another matter entirely. To the extent they take payment they very much ought to be prosecuted for fraud, yes, and when those under their negligent care die they ought to be prosecuted for manslaughter at the very least.
Doesn't the donations that those religions you speak of go to pay their leaders?? I believe they do. So wouldn't they be paying for a sermon!!...lol
DeleteThat would be true only if you had to pay in order to hear the sermon. But you can hear it for free. In none of these other churches is there any need to pay at all. The only exception I can think of is Scientology, and it's frankly hard to think of a better bedfellow for Mormonism.
Delete
Delete1. We thank thee, O God, for a prophet
To guide us in these latter days.
We thank thee for sending the gospel
To lighten our minds with its rays.
We thank thee for every blessing
Bestowed by thy bounteous hand.
We feel it a pleasure to serve thee
And love to obey thy command.
2. When dark clouds of trouble hang o'er us
And threaten our peace to destroy,
There is hope smiling brightly before us,
And we know that deliv'rance is nigh.
We doubt not the Lord nor his goodness.
We've proved him in days that are past.
The wicked who fight against Zion
Will surely be smitten at last.
3. We'll sing of his goodness and mercy.
We'll praise him by day and by night,
Rejoice in his glorious gospel,
And bask in its life-giving light.
Thus on to eternal perfection
The honest and faithful will go,
While they who reject this glad message
Shall never such happiness know.
This is interesting but you have many spelling errors. Please correct these in the interest of credibility
ReplyDeleteOne example (of many).. you say "precedence". They correct word is "precedent". I think the allegations are credible but your many errors damage credibility. (Sorry for bluntness)
ReplyDeleteWonderful exposition of the fact that Mormonism causes much more harm than good. Thanks David.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who says that Mormonism causes much more harm than good, doesn't have a clue what they are saying. This is all a bunch of hogwash.
DeleteCredibility is not damaged by a mere grammatical error. WTF? You need to chill dude.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theculturalhallpodcast.com/2014/02/rumor-time-a-court-filing-against-president-thomas-monson-and-a-summons-for-fraud/
ReplyDeletePeople who leave the LDS Church, just can't seem to leave it alone. I have been a member for over 60 years and I have never been forced to live any of the teachings. I live them because I want to and because life is so much better and happier if I do. There is so much corruption in the world and I don't want to have anything to do with that part of it. The LDS church teaches honesty and I would not want to follow in your foot steps David. This is all a bunch of crock! Grow up!
ReplyDeleteI have never been forced to pay a tithe, I have never been forced to live an honest, clean Christ like life........I do it because I want to be an honest , clean, Christ-like person......take off the blinders of hate ....worry about your own salvation....God Bless.....
ReplyDeleteRidiculous! What a waste of time this was to read. There's no foundation. An attack on beliefs? Isn't the U.K. a free country? It'll never go anywhere. Use your time to fight for a better cause.
ReplyDeleteIt's not an attack on beliefs per se, and this may have some chance of success.
DeleteSee, here's the thing. Most religions, no matter how absurd their claims, are wise enough as either a doctrinal or pragmatic matter not to make their version of salvation contingent on meeting a financial obligation. They are further more wise enough not to base their teachings on a set of facts which are susceptible to be disproven. Roman Catholicism may not have liked Galileo's discoveries, but ultimately their teachings were not as utterly reliant on geocentrism as they might have thought. Do they believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, consubstantial with the Father, incarnate from a virgin? Well, absurd as that sounds to the nonbeliever, it's still not something that can be definitively shown false by science, and you still do not need to pay anything at all to be a Catholic in good standing with full access to the sacraments.
When you induce people to pay and pay and pay and pay, or they are not going to enjoy "exaltation" in the next life, or even go to their own children's weddings, for that matter, and you extract these payments based not on theology but on specific historical and scientific claims that can be and have been disproven -- and you know very well they have been disproven -- then you may have a problem.
It's not an attack on beliefs, but an attack on claiming things as facts, when they are easily proven wrong.
DeleteFrank, I had a good laugh about this too. I applaud you for having "real" proof of this hoax..lol... the Debunkers are the ones who are being debunked!!
ReplyDeleteYou've confused the City of London Magistrates' Court, which is at 1 Queen Victoria Street, with Westminster Magistrates' Court, which is indeed at 181 Marylebone Road -- but which ADMINSTERS the City of London Magistrates' court, and hence serves as its mailing address.
ReplyDeleteSo sorry to disappoint you, but this "gotcha" doesn't.
28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.
ReplyDeleteProceed with caution dude. I'm not real worried about any judge in the courts of men.
Forbidden paths are a blast on a mountain bike! But yeah, caution--wear protection!
DeleteWhat embarrassing twaddle. Lawyers across the oceans are laughing at the merits of this suit. I don't know how many people still had doubts about the true intent of MormonThink, as opposed to the intentionally deceptive way it presents itself, but this should help clear it up.
ReplyDeleteSo Kent, do you think the LDS Church should come clean about its false representations concerning Hebrews in America, The Expositer, the "martyrdom" of Smith, and more? Or should they continue leaving the bland, waterdown lies in their gospel teaching manuals?
DeleteWhat does that have to do with this lawsuit? It's embarrassing that anyone takes it seriously. Shows that some critics of Mormonism are at least as gullible as anyone they criticize.
DeleteWhat a waste of time and tax payers money !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteGiving Churches tax exemptions, who committ fraud by lying, is a waste of tax payer's money.
DeleteThank God I'm an American ! Land of the free - freedom of speech, freedom of religious belief, separation of God and State.
ReplyDeleteEat drink and be merry....
ReplyDeleteI have a huge LDS family and they believe what they like. No harm done. I don't believe in the same things as my family. But I do understand that the whole tax evasion and hiding behind the church had always been a problem. I live in Utah And we all know that the tax problem. If there is a change that helps everyone Great. But if people want to believe in the LDS religion fine if someone wants to beLieve in a tree wonderful its about what helps them live everyday. But in the end its about doing what is right and cutting corners and lying so you don't have to pay is wrong maybe someone will learn.
ReplyDeleteSpaldings "Manuscript Found", was edited by Sidney Rigdon to add the spiritual language. Rigdon was the "theologian" of the group and I'm to understand he authored the Temple Covenant Ceremony as well...
ReplyDeleteI've never received a "bill" for anything I've donated to the LDS church. It's all voluntary. A donation is just that, a donation.
ReplyDeleteThe above claims regarding translations and such cannot be disproven. Regarding, for example, the pictographs in the D&C and the Book of Abraham, it isn't said that those were the source of the translation. They may have been on the papyri that included the translation, but not the portion that was used for the translation. The majority of the papyri were unfortunately burned in the Wood Museum during the Chicago Fire. In the 1960s a few fragments were discovered in an archive and sent to SLC. It is doubtful that even those were the specific pieces used during the translation.
Regarding Native American Indians and Jewish ancestry, it isn't currently taught that ALL Indians have that ancestry. The Americas were peopled by many others who came from many lands, over several centuries. Besides, the BofM says that the Lamanites' physical appearance was "changed" due to a curse brought on by disobedience. If this is the case, it would have necessitated a change to their DNA. If their DNA was altered to change their appearance, then it is doubtful a link to the DNA of those who lived Israel could be validated.
All religions have "oddities" such as those called out here. This sounds like a disgruntled few trying to rip all religions, starting with one they are most familiar with. My guess is the ultimate driving force for this is they feel guilty about something or other that they want to do, but have been told is contrary to Church teachings, such as drinking alcohol, or some such. I've seen that be the case with others in the past. Nothing new here, other than the formal level of vindictiveness.
What a waste of time. Totally dumb. If you no longer believe, get over it and move on with your life. Proof that beer is good, God is great, and PEOPLE ARE CRAZY! I feel really sorry for those that just can't seem to get over it. Waste of energy.
ReplyDelete"My guess is the ultimate driving force for this is they feel guilty about something or other that they want to do, but have been told is contrary to Church teachings, such as drinking alcohol, or some such. I've seen that be the case with others in the past. Nothing new here, other than the formal level of vindictiveness."
ReplyDeleteThis mentality is what caused this, you are ignoring the issues and attacking him personally.
waste of time writing this blog becuase your a joke mate with nothing better to write about and that tom philips has pretty much denied the holy ghost which is the worst thing you can do
ReplyDelete"Found guilty on election fraud (proposition 8 in CA,USA)"
ReplyDeleteLie. At no point did this occur.
I'm afraid you're the liar here. http://www.examiner.com/article/california-ethics-commission-finds-mormons-guilty-on-13-counts-of-late-prop-8-campaign-reporting
Nothing else you're saying is true either, and the proof is out there if you care to look, but this is the easiest to refute.
Oh God, here we go again, you can always count on one of the staunch defenders of mormonism to feel personally assaulted every time criticism is made or points are brought up that make the mormon church seem anything less than beautiful. And as always, it ends with "well, they're just mad because they're going out and sinning and drinking and whatnot...lol. Pretty standard...I mean there's two posts from the faithful and note that they both level that accusation that someone must be a sinner in order to comment. Every time criticism is leveled, they all pull water from the same well of propaganda put out by the mormon think tank. The WHOLE purpose of the mormon think tank is so that people aren't "burdened" with thinking for themselves. This is Korihor, signing off...lol
ReplyDeleteI consider this an opportunity to lay before a court the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
ReplyDeleteWhat is disappointing to me is that a man can be a bishop and a stake president WITHOUT "evidence of God". How is that possible?
I know with absolute certainty that God exists, as also his enemy, and quite a few other things that you'll never point a scanning tunneling microscope on.
It seems odd this claim does not touch on the One True Question -- that of God and whether he speaks to the prophet. If so, all else is irrelevant.
As to some of these claims -- I suppose this may be the first and only place curious people come so I will make answers.
The best place for answers is the book itself. The Book of Mormon. This is the foundation. Most attacks assume things about the Book of Mormon that it doesn't actually claim within its pages. No one has been able to definitively locate Zarahemla (for instance).
The story follows ONE FAMILY, that of Lehi, fleeing Jerusalem with his wife, children, their spouses and children, and a few servants. That's it. They went by ship somewhere, endured a storm, landed somewhere, started a colony. Eventually they discovered they weren't alone, the natives they called "Lamanites". Little or no interbreeding took place and the Lamanites eventually wiped out the Nephites. DNA? Extremely unlikely!
"Joseph and Hyrum Smith were killed as martyrs in 1844"
Yes. Next...
"There was no death on this planet prior to 6,000 years ago"
I have been a Mormon for many decades and have not believed this claim, although I am familiar with it. It appears to be true that spiritual death (ie, separation from God) started with the fall of Adam and Eve, and for most people that separation is still in force (as is clearly the case with the author). It is this kind of death that also requires the atonement of Jesus Christ.
"All humans alive today are descended from just two people who lived approximately 6,000 years ago"
Maybe. Genesis is clear that how time is measured in the garden isn't the same as after the flood. It is also clear from plain reading that Cain found himself a wife in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Where did they come from? Obviously they were already here.
So "first man and woman" may have special religious connotation that excludes Neanderthal and maybe even Cro-Magnon. But what difference does it make on a fraud case? I have never been required to believe there was no death, no other life on Earth that resembled humans. It's a worthy question but hardly "fraud".
I'm not sure how much room I get so I'll stop here (oops, too big, this is 2nd revision). Thanks for reading!
Michael Gordon
Why thank Mr/Ms Anonymous. Thanks for clearing that up. I bear my testimony that you actually believe what you write. Thanks so much, Sincerely, Korihor.
DeleteIt sounds like you haven't even read the Book of Mormon.
DeleteYou said, "Eventually they (Lehi's family) discovered they weren't alone, the natives they called "Lamanites"."
Are you seriously claiming that the Lamanites were not actually descendents from Laman and Lemuel (Lehi's sons)? If so, I suggest you reread the Book of Mormon.
This really isn't relevant at all and doesn't have much to do with anything but every time I see a picture of Tommy Monson, it reminds me of that evil preacher in Poltergeist 2. "Let me IN! You're all gonna DIE!" *singing* God is innn his holy temple.." lol Sincerely, Korihor.
ReplyDeletea little over 45 years ago I served in London and nothing has changed. These are the same charges that were available in any church throughout the land in the form of anti Mormon literature. I don't know whether you are sinning or not but I can certainly spot a Kool Aide drinker. I saw nothing in this article that was anything but supposition. I bare testimony That President Monson is a Prophet and like the Prophets of old many would not listen to them. I have faith that this trial will not come out as per the plans of the prosecution and this blip on the radar will be dispensed of quickly
ReplyDeleteLeave it to the Brit's to think of something this stupid, didn't failing at trying to stamp out Catholicism in Ireland teach you anything? People are going to believe what they want to, no matter what others think.
ReplyDeleteI am a Mormon who lives in the UK and I have read a lot of anti-mormon doctrine and I can understand why some people are dubious when it comes to our religion. However, I believe completely in the Book of Mormon, and I have prayed about it many times and have found my answers. I am very happy with it. I'm sure someone will tell me why the Book of Mormon isn't true or why my religion is false, but to be honest there is not anything that I haven't heard already. I am 100% convinced of the truth, I don't expect others to have the same belief but they should be respectful. I have read all of the previous comments, and some of them are ridiculously disrespectful. Korihor, you are definitely a smart arse lets be honest. No one is forced to pay tithing. I hadn't paid my tithing for a year or two and no one said a word to me. I still held a calling in Church and attended regularly. I pay it regularly now because my life has been better since.
ReplyDeleteThomas Monson is a good man who cares about others. Good people always torn into, and it is how it will always be.
Were you able to get a Temple Recommend while you were not paying your tithing?
DeleteSo many use the defense "no one is forced" to do anything. But we all know that being forced doesn't have to be coercive. Within the Church, it's coercion through manipulation. In other words, the consequence for lack of obedience is a far better tactic than forcing but no less coercive. Sure you don't HAVE to pay your tithing but you can't go to the temple and you are made to feel guilty for it. Think of Emma's condemnation in Section 132 of the D&C. Emma wasn't forced to accept her lot as a submissive polygamist, but what was her alternative? The revelation said she would be DESTROYED. Of course she fell into line. Such is the "force" and coercion within the church that you and so many others claim is not there. You have the choice to do as you like, but your eternal salvation is on the line.
DeleteMonson is the nicest man on earth. If he needs arresting, then the whole planet should!
ReplyDeleteWow, Anonymous, you sound like you have met the man and spent countless hours in his presence... is that true? what do you actually know of Monson? how do you know he's not a fraud? because the "Spirit" told you so? Wilford Woodruff promised that God would never let any prophet lead us astray, yet for over 100 years we were all led astray by B. Young, Joseph F. Smith, etc. etc., all who claimed there was some Godly reason blacks shouldn't have the priesthood, only to find out that it was all one big mistake and there was no reason for a revelation in the first place. ooops. the church has admitted that it wasn't God but imperfect bigots (B Young, et al) that denied them. how does that not raise a question in your head? if we were led astray by prophets in the past, ones such as B. Young, isn't it remotely possible that they may be leading us astray today? how can you "follow the prophet" when you don't even know which revelations are true and which ones are false? how do YOU know which revelations are of God and which ones are of man?
Deletelol
ReplyDelete"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"
ReplyDeleteThere is no such thing as Lamanites or Nephites, they are BOM fiction. No such thing as living Lamanites. They are made up to the story, and Native Americans need to be freed of these lies and claims. DNA evidence proves this to be true. It was taught by the LDS church for many years this lie, then they changed their fiction to say something different. Polynesians are from Asian/Indonesian decent per DNA testing. There is NO SUCH THING. this church is a fraud, harms many people, and a court will shed the light for the confused public. Recovery can take many years from the Mormon Fraud perpetuated on the public.
ReplyDeleteIt will be interesting to see how this plays a role in all publicly funded entities, "religious" as well as "secular." If any organization/institution cannot make claims to solicit funds, there goes all funding for research on scientific theories. The argument could be made that science calls it "theory" while religion calls it "truth" but in my experience both require "research," either through a scientific method or a metaphysical action like prayer/faith, etc. To show Monson's or any other religious figure's claim as false would require access to all physical truths as well as another's private consciousness. It sounds like the same age-old witch hunt of theism vs.atheism. This blogs tries to appear like a formal empirical article but ends up looking like an agenda charged piece with a feel of antagonism towards Monson/mormonism. With that being said, it is a well done and very "thought provoking" opinion piece (oh no, not metaphysics!).
ReplyDeleteNo non-profit can solicit donations with fraudulent statements. In the case of Mormonism in the person of Monson, we DO have access to the physical truths about which the fraudulent statements are made. Of course it's impossible to see into someone's consciousness to determine for sure what he does or does not know, which is why the law instead seeks to discover what a reasonable person SHOULD know.
Delete- It can be shown beyond any doubt that the BoA is not what Mormonism claims it is.
- It can be shown by a clear preponderance of the evidence that the BoM was not translated as Mormonisms claims it was.
- It can be shown with certainty that ancient Native American populations had no Semitic ancestry, by the same technology used to identify people who have committed crimes and left DNA evidence.
- The true cause for the lynching of Joseph and Hyrum Smith is a matter of contemporary historical record.
- The Navuoo Expositor can be shown to have been printing the truth about Joseph Smith.
- No rational person will agree there was no death on this planet before about 6,000 years ago.
- The demonstrable ancestry of the human race is much older than 6,000 years.
If simply preaching nonsense were as far as it went, there would be nothing to prosecute. Lots of preachers preach nonsense. However, many of these claims (particularly those about translation) are part of an extremely efficient program by which money is extracted from those who have been induced to believe these false claims -- well. That puts a different color on things.
It is simply wrong to put prayer and faith on the same epistemological level as science. Science is repeatable and verifiable; prayer and faith is personal and subjective. Everyone can see the results of science for themselves, but for revelation we can only trust the revelator. You performed a scientific experiment and got one result; I performed the same and got a different result: one of us is wrong, and we can determine which by examining the methods and by attempting further reduplication. Over time the question will be settled. You prayed and received one testimony; I prayed and received a different, contradictory testimony. Which of us is right? Both? Neither? Over time the question will NEVER be settled, and the faith will fragment into numerous contradictory sects, as nearly all of them in fact have. The two spheres are not comparable.
No such thing as heaven (salvation) or an afterlife. You will die, and your clean honest life will be just a memory for your family. You do not have the authority of the gods to bless anyone...Your money will buy you nothing. Blinders are on you, because you believe a myth. NO SUCH THING as Christ, the Gods, or Judgement Day. Indoctrination is a sad thing, my honest opinion of this blog of self righteousness.
ReplyDeleteThank you to Mormon Think for exposing one of the greatest frauds ever, that of Joseph Smith on the gullible public. The courts will air out the lies, and the fiction will be exposed for the lies and plagiarisms contained within BOM. IT IS ABOUT TIME. Stand up to the bullies that are getting rich supporting the corporation. This is not a religion, it is a racket. Dealing with the mind controlled, brainwashed, indoctrinated zealots will not be easy, but a necessary evil. All religion is bunk. Expose the crooks! You GO BOY. WE SUPPORT YOU.
ReplyDeleteThe new edition of the Book of Mormon changed the wording in the preface ... it used to say that the Lamanites were the primary ancestors of Native Americans and now it simply says "they are among the ancestors of the American Indians." I think that is literally impossible to disprove.
ReplyDeleteAlso "sustaining" does not mean leaders are infallible ... that's why they need to be sustained :p The Church has its problems like any other institution because imperfect people are in charge of it.
One more thought ... if a mission president were to be paid by a normal corporation (or other church, for that matter) for his extremely strenuous service, it would be a lot of money. They can make much more money elsewhere. Plus, frankly, the money they receive is little compared to a lifetime of tithing.
There is archaeological evidence .... Nahum in 1 Nephi ... and coincidentally an ancient place by the same name located along a likely travel route of Lehi and his family. There's more I'm sure but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
ReplyDelete"Nahum in 1 Nephi ... and coincidentally an ancient place by the same name located along a likely travel route of Lehi and his family. "
ReplyDeleteThat's been thoroughly debunked. Even FAIR (mormon apologists) don't buy the NHM rock argument as evidence. FAIR says: "Yes. It is a match, but it is not a unique match, since other words with vowels removed can match NHM." and "LDS scholars do not claim that the only existing pronunciation of NHM is "Nahom."
Furthermore, maps have been found that existed at the time of Joseph Smith listing the "Nahom" on the arabian peninsula. Do your own research. It's all there.
http://www.mormonthink.com/book-of-mormon-problems.htm#nhm
wow. So the BOM ended when? and it can't be possible that there was more blood mixed in? There are lots of stories in the BOM that tells of new groups of people being found, and other groups of people leaving by boat, etc. NO where in any church doctrine I've seen or been told has said that the 1st nations people are exclusively BOM people. But that BOM people are now first nations people, among other things. Like so many things, the BOM was written from the viewpoint of a few people populating the Americas, and they wrote about their own experiences. Did they know if there were other people with other DNA living on the continent? It's a big place, and I assume not. So the comments above that state Mormon doctrine states that all first nations people are lamanites and that we are 'running away from the truth' is, while hilarious, just not true. Why not find an official statement from the church that says what you claim above, and site them if you're going to use them. hearsay.
ReplyDeleteTo me this blog looks like an endless cycle of mormons vs antimormons.To use scientific evidence to try and prove someones beliefs being false is absurd!
ReplyDeleteProverbs 3: 5
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."
We,the mormons,are taught to invite all to "come unto Christ" (Moroni 10:32).To invite all to read the Book of Mormon and then to pray with a sincere heart and with real intent to know if it is true(Doctrine and Covenants 9:8)and that if we do this then the Lord will make it known unto us by the power of the Holy Ghost(Moroni 10:5).This is accomplished by following gospel principles,namely in Article of Faith no. 4 found in the Pear of Great Price,
"We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ…”
I will touch on the first principle only because I dont want this to seem like youre reading a novel.
Faith - Faith is believing without seeing.Article of Faith no. 1 says,"We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."I will relate this to something ALL of us will understand.Wind.We can feel wind,see the effects it has on things around us and feel it against our skin, but can we SEE it? No,but we can all testify that wind exists with no doubt.This is similar to our beliefs,I have not personally seen God or Jesus Christ,but I feel of his love and I have felt the power of the Spirit/Holy Ghost when I exercise faith.Remember faith is believing without seeing.You might be thinking,if there is a divine being such as the spirit then how does one feel of its power?how can I know it exists?
You cant find what youre not looking for
The only way to know of our church and our beliefs is to faithfully attend our meetings ask our missionaries and church leaders and pray and study the Book of Mormon,NOT by reading antimormon literature or relying on science.Referring back to Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."
Faith is what every religious person has and it is something that no one else can take away.Faith is either strengthened and developed or weakened and lost but only by the individual that holds it.No one can take away my faith,no matter what scientific evidence claims to prove.I trust in the Lord with all my heart.The lord is a perfect,he cant make mistakes.Scientific evidence is found with common-man and we as commoners are not perfect therefor we must "lean not unto thine own understanding."
I testify that God lives and loves each of us,and because he loves us he sent son,Jesus Christ to Atone for the sins of the world,that we might one day return to live with Him and all out loved-ones and receive eternal happiness.I know that Thomas S. Monson is a living prophet receives modern revelation for us today.I know that Joseph Smith was indeed the prophet of the restoration and that he did translate the Book of Mormon.I know the Book of Mormon to be the word of God and I challenge all who read this to honestly and sincerely read the Book of Mormon and pray about it for themselves and I promise that if you do,you wont be able to deny its truthfulness and your life and the lives of those whom you share this message with will be blessed.
No matter what happens next with Thomas S. Monson,our(the mormons)faith will not be broken.Several prophets have been accused of false charges before and probably will do in the future.
I feel sorry for those that are accusing President Monson of this,clearly something has made them spiritually weak and probably sad/angry/depressed. If only they didnt lose their faith.But as we youngsters say,haters gonna hate
Your problem is that these are not false charges. When "faith" intrudes on the real world, the real world is going to decide how true it is by how closely what it says conforms to reality. If Mormonism held itself to metaphysical articles of faith there would be no issue, but it makes a large number of assertions about real, verifiable historical events.
DeleteHow ever do you think you can convert someone with manifest untruths? And how ever do you expect anyone to hold to Mormonism when they discover those untruths?
It's not a matter of faith that Native Americans are descended from Hebrews; that's something we can actually check. They're not. It's not a matter of faith that the texts of the Book of Abraham say this or that: we can real Egyptian now, and they don't say what JS claimed. The events surrounding the death of Joseph Smith aren't a matter of faith, but of the record of the times, and it wasn't how Mormonism likes to paint it.
Two contradictory things cannot both be true, and the rather attenuated Mormon version of God is nowhere near omnipotent enough to make it otherwise even if he existed.
I hope you burn in hell! You are messing around with gods prophet,and you WILL see gods hands brush over your life. In the name if Jesus Christ Amen.
ReplyDeleteGet a grip! You're going to need it cuz it's gonna be a bumpy ride. This case is legit. The publicity is bad for the Mos and it's only gonna get worse.
DeleteI hope you burn in hell! [...] In the name [o]f Jesus Christ Amen.
DeleteThat says it all about people like you, really.
I just wonder if President Monson has inquired of the Lord on how to deal with the dilemma's at hand. What I see looks more like man trying to save Joseph and his God than Jesus saving man. I think the answer from Jesus does not require a seer stone. It's already in Scripture and its called Repentance.
ReplyDeleteWhere do you get the idea that mormonism thinks it is always right and cannot change its views? Brigham Young taught that all truth is part of our religion. He counseled bishops to give the pulpit to anyone who wanted to preach, with the idea that if he taught false doctrine the bishop could set it straight either that day or in the future. We do believe that we have the "fulness of the gospel," and some of us are diligently trying to figure out what that means. Ours is a religion that follows the scientific method with regard to spirituality. We believe that you cannot rely on borrowed light, that you cannot blindly follow the prophet, that each individual must seek and receive his own enlightenment. If you read the book of mormon, start with Moroni 10:4. There you are invited to make an experiment into spirituality. Read the book. Ponder its message. Then ask God if it is right. You are promised that if you do it with "real intent" meaning you are not bent on proving it wrong at all costs, but instead you only want the truth, God will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost. I have done the experiment and I tell you it is true. I have received the promised manifestation. Like all good science, it means nothing unless you can duplicate it yourself. So put in all the right ingredients. Read the book of mormon with a pondering mind trying to understand it. Pray and ask God if it is true. If you do, he will manifest to you that it is true. Then, like me you will study DNA, and polygamy, and Abraham's presence in and teachings to the ancient Egyptians, and the myriad of other things that the enemy of righteousness uses to distract us from becoming righteous, as a hobby since you now know God. I wish you well on your quest.
ReplyDeleteI venture to suggest Lawrence Seow is somewhat confused when he makes a big issue in my paper.sg about the lack of homosexual family legacies. The first point to make is that same sex marriages are very recent and obstacles are still being put in the way of gay partners adopting children (e.g. Catholic adoption agencies). So how could there be a substantial legacy? In Singapore and Australia, for example, gay marriage is still not yet lawful. Lawrence goes on to say that “homosexuals have been around for centuries” and this hints at a logical anomaly: genetic evidence for homosexual orientation is suggested by latest studies and the fact that homosexuals keep appearing on the scene is an anomaly currently preoccupying Darwinists. Homosexuality is also quite common in the animal kingdom and it is not as if animals make lifestyle choices that lead them into difficulty and rejection. So genetics is likely to be a factor. Finally, on the family issue, I would point out that most, i.e. 90%, of child abuse occurs WITHIN families and not as a result of action by “strangers”. Perhaps a caring same sex partnership could offer love and care to many of the children languishing in awful institutions around the world. Since such partnerships could not arrange that their children be homosexual, a preposterous thought, it is difficult to see how you could ever have a family tree of homosexuals. As to homosexual relationships not lasting for a lifetime, that is patent rubbish. My own relationship with another man is in its 43rd year and since we are 70 years and 76 years of age, I can’t see us turning to A.N.Other before fleeing this mortal coil. I know of several other relationships that endured to the end, with partners caring lovingly for people with dementia, disabling stroke and terminal cancer. I also know that the percentage of heterosexual marriages that break down is very high indeed, certainly in the UK. The cosy picture of grans and granddads being respected is not what Lawrence's letter suggests. In the UK grandparents are often having to pick up the pieces of failed heterosexual marriages by taking on the next generation of children. Lawrence’s comments are, in my view, disrespectful to gay people, past and present, that I count or counted as friends. Please publish these comments as a matter of balance. We all have a right to our views but we need to be careful about the impact they have on those we talk about.
ReplyDeleteI am so glad to see the false church being sued for fraud..it is the biggest fraud ever pulled on man..all this may help the stupid Mormon sheeple bin Utah and the world open there eyes and take the sack off there head and see the true..i hope the brits take every thing the church owns over there..oh yes you ladys that want the priesthood open your eyes the priest hood is nothing but more phony lds bull shit hang all 15 crooks in charge
ReplyDeleteSue all the other religions if you want to sue for fraud. Face it, this is just discriminatory. It sickens me the things people say about Mormons. That is, it sickens me when I'm not laughing my head off about how stupid some people are.
ReplyDeleteThanks for this post. I can't believe that stuff happens. Keep up the good work on this blog.
ReplyDelete