Thursday, December 20, 2012

Acting expeditiously


Quick post.  I think most of you understand the implication of this official, under penalty of perjury, expeditious letter.  The MP Handbook is confirmed authentic and is clearly dictating official policy of the LDS church.

Sorry so large, but I wanted the full resolution so it can be easily read.


43 comments:

  1. This just proves it. David is the one who is acting illegal. Not the LDS Church. David could be going to court. The church is acting legally and appropriately. All of you who support him are fools!

    ReplyDelete
  2. To the anonymous poster who postd on December 20, 2012, 8:41 PM:

    How is David "the one who is acting illegal"? He has posted a confirmed, authentic official policy of the LDS church.

    The real question is, is the LDS church, or should I say, cult, acting "legally and appropriately?" Hmm, let me think about this one... Last time I checked, TAX EVASION was ILLEGAL! That's right, buddy. Illegal.

    So, my little mormon friend, go back to your secret (oops, I mean, "sacred") cultish rituals in your temple. You aren't supposed to affiliate with groups whose practices are contrary to the church. Some mormon you are.

    Fuck you and fuck the cult you belong to.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Too funny, resorting to invectives! Whomever you are, you're sure carrying a horribly heavy burden of anger. Tell me how many cults do you know? What is your definition of a cult? How many years, centuries do cults last? Take a chill pill, you're going to have a heart attack harboring all of that anger and hatred!

    ReplyDelete
  4. just compare, then explain how the LDS church does not meet the definition.

    www.howcultswork.com

    ReplyDelete
  5. The Mormon "secret society" does not want their law breaking policies exposed so they accuse those who show the truth.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Are you a comedian or are you being serious about the cult thing? I'm thinking that people who sell something are cults, or Disneyland is a cult. Boyscouts, girlscouts etc.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Disneyland is fantasy and so is the Book of Mormon. Neither are grounded in reality and both charge money to participate in the illusion. People pay park admission fee at the gates of Disneyland or tithing to the Bishop for the temple recommend. Either way it is a ride into a pretend world. But when someone leaves Disneyland they know that there are not real talking country bears or sleeping beauties. Meanwhile, Mormons think that the Book of Mormon is a real history of American Indians. Is that a cult?

      Delete
  7. Go to this website: http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_cult.shtml

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. When an organization tries to excommunicate someone for simply speaking against the leaders, it's a cult. I know this from personal experience. This blog is evidence, from almost the beginning, that the church is a cult in the way they tried to silence me. Lindsay is an apologist for the cult.

      Delete
    2. I refuse to visit Lindsay's site. He perpetates lies and racist ideas. See this one: http://www.nothingwavering.org/2012/01/08/33560-dna-and-the-book-of-mormon-rejecting-an-absurd-oversimplication.html

      He repeats Nibley's statement of American Indians being moral degenerates. Ever heard of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People? Statements like Nibley's are racist and morally condemnable. Lindsay should know better but he is the product of Mormonism's racist culture so I'm not surprised.

      Lindsay also repeats a lie told by Nibley: "the Book of Mormon identified Asia as a source for ancient Native Americans long before anthropologists did." Hello, the land bridge theory has been around since at least 1590. It was first postulated by the Jesuit scholar José de Acosta.

      Mormon apologists are not to be trusted. Why should I believe liars?

      Delete
  8. I don't think we are reading the same thing. I looked at your link and there wasn't anything there that indicated that Lindsay thinks Indians are moral degenerates. You are so full of hatred that it clouding your thought process. A cult would not excommunicate they would suck you in and never, ever let you out. Again, further proof that your thought process is off.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is a racist description of American Indians - "they preserved the ways of their ancestors, including certain savage and degenerate practices, and carried on a free and open type of steppe warfare with true Asiatic cruelty and ferocity".

      How do you interpret "degenerate practices"? Mormons think that Indians are moral degenerates unless they accept the LDS faith. Your lack of honesty in replying to me is quite telling. Also, how am I "filled with hate"? I am simply pointing out the racism that is part of your religious culture. Lindsay should know better than to perpetuate this untrue and racist description of American Indians.

      Delete
  9. I don't see any writing as racist. In the Bible when Moses came down from the mountain he described what the people were doing. Which was immoral, they were slaves that left Egypt. Also in the Bible there was a description of what the people did in Sodom and Gomorrah. If someone was raping someone savagely and that person was white, wouldn't that person be described as white? If there practices were "degenerate," why wouldn't the person describe them as such? They weren't saying, "because," they are Indian they are etc., you are assigning that meaning. Doesn't make you the racist? Racism is a part of just about every religous culture. Wake up! You are filled with hatred, anyone that goes out of their way to denigrate a religion has to be filled with hatred.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I have no hate and am simply pointing out the racism of the Book of Mormon. I am not interested in the Bible and do not consider it to be the words of God. It is nothing more than a collection of the writings of humans. Perhaps you need to wake up. The bible cannot be used to justify human rights abuses without the world communities opposing those who would do so.

      Now consider the Book of Mormon and Mormonism. The teaching that American Indian ancestors were delightsome but became wicked and degenerated morally is not only scientifically false, it is racist. The majority of the nations of the world including the United States have adopted the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. The teachings found in the Book of Mormon are contrary to it.

      http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/DRIPS_en.pdf

      "Affirming further that all doctrines, policies and practices based on or advocating superiority of peoples or individuals on the basis of national origin or racial, religious, ethnic or cultural differences are racist, scientifically false, legally invalid, morally condemnable and socially unjust"

      Did you get that? Racism doesn't have to be skin color, it can be advocating superiority on the basis of religious or cultural differences. Now let me make this simple for you. Your religion advocates that American Indians are in a dark and loathsome status because their ancestors abandoned Christianity long before Columbus came. They become delightsome if they become Mormons. That, Anonymous Mormon, is racist and has no place in the 21st century. It has nothing to do with hate toward you or your religion, it has everything to do with standing up for the rights of indigenous peoples. Your Book of Mormon needs to be renounced and discarded.

      Delete
    2. Tax exempt status for churches can be revoked when the religious organization is contrary to fundamental government policies. Think about that whenever you hear Mormon children singing "given this land, if they live, righteously". Mormons are teaching children that Indians lost their lands because they abandoned Christianity. Mormons use Indians as an object lesson, with the fictional teaching that if the citizens of the US do not observe Christ, they will lose their lands just as the Indians did. It is a racist teaching that is contrary to the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

      http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/DRIPS_en.pdf
      "Recognizing the urgent need to respect and promote the inherent rights of indigenous peoples which derive from their political, economic and social structures and from their cultures, spiritual traditions, histories and philosophies, especially their rights to their lands, territories and resources"

      Why should the taxpayers of the US condone exemption status to Mormonism? We are now seeing how mission presidents are hiding income and evading taxes. Why should the religious institution of Mormonism be granted tax exemption while it continues to single out the American Indians and teaches LDS children to label them as moral degenerates?

      Delete
  10. You are nuts, you do realize that right? I'm a convert in the church, and adult convert. I have been in the church since 2005. I have had a calling in Primary and the children aren't taught anything about Indians. Before converting I investigated and read everything I could about the church, including the negative things about the church. It is nuts like you that take writings out of context and build on it. Mormon's eleventh Article of Faith states: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." The song you are quoting out of context is talking about if you choose not to live according to the Lords teachings you reap the consequences. The church sends missionaries everywhere, including Indian Reservations. They go not only in attempts to convert, but to also learn the history that the Indians were taught.

    Since you don't believe in any God or religion why target just the Mormons? Unless you carry special hatred toward the Mormons.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why do you resort to personal attack by calling me nuts? You are being dishonest. The Book of Mormon is claimed to be a history of ancient America. The first mission was to the Indians. Joseph Smith claimed that Moroni said the Indians were the literal descendants of Abraham.

      I am not quoting the song out of context at all. It is a racist display when LDS children pantomime feathers behind the head and other such nonsense while singing it. The rhythm of that song is reminiscent of Hollywood stereotypes of Indians.

      1 Nephi 13 is about Columbus and Europeans coming to America and being blessed with God's spirit while the Indians suffered God's wrath. You should read this:

      http://www.adl.org/education/curriculum_connections/Doctrine_of_Discovery.asp

      The effects of Manifest Destiny and the Doctrine of Discovery continue today. Why do Mormons keep teaching it to their children?

      Why target Mormons? Because their canonized scripture, the Book of Mormon, is a false history of America's indigenous peoples. It is a racist book. The teachings, even those to LDS children, present ideas that are contrary to the human rights of indigenous peoples in the Americas. And no other religion claims to have such a history of ancient America.

      You keep accusing me of hatred yet all I am concerned about is human rights. Stop lying to me and to yourself. The Book of Mormon claims that the ancestors of Indians were cursed and that curse transmitted down through generations of children. The Book of Mormon claims that America is a special land reserved for those who worship your God. That ties your religion to land rights. Your eleventh article of faith doesn't mention that does it? Worship according to one's own conscience but lose your lands if you don't worship correctly. That is contrary to the consensus of the nations of the world in the 21st century. Your book of Mormon needs to be renounced and discarded.

      Delete
    2. You said "Since you don't believe in any God or religion why target just the Mormons?"

      Why in the world would you make that assumption simply because I do not believe the Bible or the Book of Mormon? What is it with Mormons that causes them to immediately accuse someone of being atheist simply because that person does not believe in Judeo-Christian teachings?

      You are making several accusations of me. You accuse me of being filled with hatred, you accuse me of being nuts and you accuse me of having no belief in any God or religion. Do you think you could learn to have a discussion about your faith without resorting to personal attacks against someone who presents valid criticisim?

      Delete
    3. Some might think the racism comes inherently from doctrine such that God chose one tribe (tribes) over the others. The Abrahamic covenant puts a family of people into a prime position, with priesthood (levitical) and leadership (joseph) above the rest. The doctrine is that the rest of the world must enter into the covenant of this family in order to get the blessings. That's inherently racist--one race is better, and the rest must adopt its views/practices or be destroyed/damned/plagued/cursed.

      The Book of Mormon took it a step further. It talks about a division within this chosen family line, where two brothers were cursed and became a distinct race with a darker skin. When they became righteous, their skin became lighter. Perhaps this meritorious melanin miracle isn't accepted today, but it's still a part of the LDS core doctrine as in "the most correct book" of mormon.

      So, while Mormons refuse to see it as racist, on the outside, it is offensive.

      Delete
  11. The Book of Mormon like the Bible belongs to everyone. Columbus is not in The Book of Mormon because he didn't exist here on earth during the time that The Book of Mormon was written. I say you are nuts because you are taking The Book of Mormon out of context and building a wild story from it. Nations have been taking other nations for thousands of years. Right, wrong or indifferent, it is done. It wasn't the Mormon's that took America from the Indians. Or, Native Americans if that is what you prefer to read. Mormons teach that all who are here on earth were together as brothers and sisters in Heaven prior to being born. Mormons teach that when Jesus returns here to earth that everything will eventually put to rights and we will all live together peacefully. As I have said I'm a convert, my family is racially mixed. I would not be a part of a church that teaches hatred of any race. I'm well aware that all Christian religions at one point were teaching either prejudice or practicing separation. I've always believed in the teachings of the Bible, part of that is following religious teachings. No one would attend church based on its imperfections. Attacking Mormons is not going to change history. Attacking anyone isn't going to change history. The Mormon's do not control what this nation does. If you prefer not to believe what the Mormon's teach about America fine. Don't believe it! However, you can't know with 100 percent certainty what actual history of the Indian's are. What you are doing by bashing Mormons, is what this nation did to the Indians a long time ago.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anonymous Mormon is now trying to argue that what happened is in the past. He or she is more concerned about personally attacking me than reading the sources I have given.

      I will reiterate once more, Mormonism teaches that America is a promised land and the people must serve God or lose their lands. That is in essence the same thing as the Doctrine of Discovery. The effects of it are not in the past.

      http://www.nyym.org/index.php?q=doc_of_disc_factsheet
      "What effect does the Doctrine of Discovery have at this time?"
      "There is no indigenous jurisdiction over crimes committed on their reservations by non-natives."

      Mormonism teaches the concept of the Doctrine of Discovery and Manifest Destiny to their children because it is in the Book of Mormon. The rest of the world is beginning to renounce it. In years to come this matter will be more challenging to Mormonism. Right now many LDS members are ignorant of it.

      Delete
    2. You have it backwards. Context is being provided for the practices and beliefs. It is not the only perspective, but it is a fact-based perspective, which can often lead to religious enlightenment that Mormonism does not provide; freedom. Instead of just giving lip service to worshipping God in their own way, Mormons should back off the "one true church" mantra becuase it is the weakest leg to stand on.

      Delete
  12. 'Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants.'-- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis

    'Secrecy is the badge of fraud'-- Sir John Chadwick (b. 1941), British judge

    'Every thing secret degenerates, even the administration of justice; nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity.'-- Lord Acton (1834-1902), English historian

    Great work, Mr. Twede.

    ReplyDelete
  13. You said "Columbus is not in The Book of Mormon because he didn't exist here on earth during the time that The Book of Mormon was written." Alright, I have had enough. You are either ignorant of your own doctrine or you are willfully and boldly lying. If you are ignorant, here is a lesson refresher:

    http://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-student-study-guide/1-nephi-13?lang=eng&query=christopher+columbus

    And here is another one for Mormon children, which might help others see either your ignorance or dishonesty when you said "Columbus is not in The Book of Mormon because he didn't exist here on earth during the time that The Book of Mormon was written."

    http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=e74d55faa5cab010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=21bc9fbee98db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

    "But long before Columbus was born, another historian wrote of this navigator’s future travels. The prophet Nephi, son of Lehi, had a vision of Columbus. He recorded the vision in 1 Nephi: “And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land” (1 Ne. 13:12)."

    You continue with the personal attacks, calling me nuts. You are not to be trusted.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I have read the Book of Mormon and nothing in it gave me the impression that it is referring to race when it talks about darkness. When I read it the impression I got was that when they are referring to darkness it wasn't so much skin as in a person's countenance. I have seen people that are just angry, all of the time angry and hateful to people. They are dark, while on the other hand I've run into people that no matter what you say, no matter what you do they are happy upbeat people. They are the type of people that you could tell them that their breath stinks and they would just smile, say they are sorry and go brush their teeth. And that person would be thankful you told them about their bad breath! Their appearance is light.

    In regards to your reference that Mormons or the Book of Mormon saying people have to do or act a certain way in order to inherit America. Apparently you are not familiar with the Bible because people lose out on good things in the Bible too, according to their behavior. Cause and reaction, if you act a certain way bad things happen. The Scriptures are a history of what happens when you do not following the Lords teachings and ways. The history is to show what happens when you don't follow the Lords teachings. Just like if you step off a house you fall to the ground. You may get hurt, or maybe not, but you fall. Mormon's do not dictate what happens, the Lord dictates from experience what happens.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/DRIPS_en.pdf

      "Affirming further that all doctrines, policies and practices based on or advocating superiority of peoples or individuals on the basis of national origin or racial, religious, ethnic or cultural differences are racist, scientifically false, legally invalid, morally condemnable and socially unjust"

      Did you get that? Racism doesn't have to be skin color, it can be advocating superiority on the basis of religious or cultural differences. Now let me make this simple for you. Your religion advocates that American Indians are in a dark and loathsome status because their ancestors abandoned Christianity long before Columbus came. They become delightsome if they become Mormons. That, Anonymous Mormon, is racist and has no place in the 21st century.

      Only Mormonism has a canonized work of fiction that claims that America is a chosen land. Only Mormonism teaches that American Indians morally degenerated from being Christians to savages. Only Mormonism has scriptures claiming to be from God that Europeans had God's spirit with them and His wrath against the Indians. It is racism in the 21st century.

      By the way, were you lying or did you not know that Columbus is in the Book of Mormon?

      Delete
    2. In regards to your comments about what happens when people do not follow the Lord's ways, I certainly hope that you do not attribute the atrocities committed against America's indigenous people even right now to being their own fault. That is why your Book of Mormon and its teachings are poison to young Mormon children. It causes people to see history and events in a distorted manner.

      You should read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. It will show you that God's wrath had nothing to do with what happened when Europeans arrived.

      Delete
    3. Go look up 2 Nephi 5:21. Its clearly describing physical characteristics of different races, and the phrase "skin of blackness" is juxtaposed with the Nephites description as "white... Fair and delightsome". If you respond emotionally to "spiritual" stimuli without using your powers of observation, then you've done exactly what church leaders count on; to trust only them because they know whats good for you. Speaking of the Lord's teachings, try doing an anlysis of who, how, where, and what Christ taught in the New Testament compared to both the pharisees and the Church today. If you do this honestly, you may find that the Church emphasizes collecting tithes more than giving to charity, the poor, and the hungry.

      Delete
  15. First, I have scanned or read the links you have posted. You believe this country belongs to the Indians. I say that ultimately I believe this land belongs to Heavenly Father. Most Indians believe that land can't belong to anyone. Matejoh says it is fact based? Who's facts? I have read and read and read tons of so called facts, until someone else comes along with solid facts, solid proof. Your link proving that you think LDS believe that Columbus is in the Book of Mormon's is someone elses opinion, note the actual words used: "Christopher Columbus is a remarkable match for the man Nephi described." It stated a remarkable match! Not that for a fact this is who they think it is for a fact. Lets entertain for a minute that this is fact, that they know for a fact that this is who they are referring to in Book of Mormon...so what! What does it prove? I know historically there are people that have suffered and lost a lot due to many different reasons. This is the cause and effect of having agency. Because of agency, because of sin bad crap happens to everyone! This is all part of the plan, part of the learning process. Mormon's are not saying they are going to take the land from anyone. If you know anything at all you'd know they are saying that this land, like ALL land will belong and indeed does belong to the Kingdom of God. That it will be Christ that will inhabit this land. If you don't believe in Mormonism, if you don't believe in the God of the Bible this would all be fantasy to you and NONE of this should matter to you one wit!

    So, you say you're not crazy and yet you're the one stating this church is going to take away the lands that belong to the Indians, after Christ comes! You are upset about something that you say you don't even believe in!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You have lied, falsely accused and now are making claims of things I never said. And you are calling me crazy.

      You said "you're the one stating this church is going to take away the lands that belong to the Indians"

      How in the world did you get that idea? I never even suggested any such thing. Here is what I have been saying:

      Your Book of Mormon is racist. The teaching that a people, religion or culture is superior is racist. The teaching that Indians became morally degenerate is racist.

      The concept of the Doctrine of Discovery granted Christian Europeans the basis to take lands from non-Christians. That is in essence what 1 Nephi 13 is about. And it is now being repudiated by Christians throughout the world. In years to come, Mormonism will be stuck with a canonized 19th century work of fiction that is racist and wrong.

      I am not the one denying my own scriptures and prophets, you are. Columbus is what the verses in 1 Nephi 13 are about. Hinckely even spoke of it in general conference.

      http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1992/10/building-your-tabernacle?lang=eng&query=christopher+columbus

      "That verse from Nephi’s vision states: “And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.” (1 Ne. 13:12.)"

      "We interpret that to refer to Columbus. It is interesting to note that the Spirit of God wrought upon him."

      Do you believe that the teachings in your LDS curriculum manuals are "someone elses opinion"? Do you believe that the words of Gordon B. Hinckley "We interpret that to refer to Columbus was "someone elses opinion"?

      My point has nothing to do with concern that Mormons are going to take lands. It is about the racism being taught to children right now.

      Only Mormonism has a canonized work of fiction that claims that America is a chosen land. Only Mormonism teaches that American Indians morally degenerated from being Christians to savages. Only Mormonism has scriptures claiming to be from God that Europeans had God's spirit with them and His wrath against the Indians. It is racism in the 21st century.

      Delete
    2. You are making several accusations of me. You accuse me of being filled with hatred, you accuse me of being nuts and you accuse me of having no belief in any God or religion. Do you think you could learn to have a discussion about your faith without resorting to personal attacks against someone who presents valid criticisim?

      Now you have made up words and ideas and falsely claimed that I said them. That is what many Mormons do when faced with a discussion that they cannot deal with. And that is why Mormonthink is so valuable. Thank you Mormonthink and thank you Dave for showing what Mormons don't want the world to see.

      Delete
    3. How old are you? You seem to approach study and learning with a self-deceptive eye, meaning that you see only what you want to see, not what is actually there. The Anon person who posted on Dec 28 @ 4pm provided links to lesson plans published BY THE CHURCH that describe Columbus as the gentile upon the waters mentioned in the BOM. Here are some other links:

      This is from a BYU course in religious studies. The book is called "Christopher Columbus: A Latter-Day Saint Perspective".
      http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/christopher-columbus-latter-day-saint-perspective/chapter-1-columbus-fulfillment-book-mormo

      Facts are things that are confirmed. It can be confirmed that the Mormon church has taught from the beginning, and continues to teach, the above linked materials.

      Now, to tie this back to Dave's discussion. Facts are that the Mormon church has taught that church leader's preach with out purse or scrip, but as David has pointed out, that is not an entirely true statement if you count money, homes, cars, vacation houses, tuition, and travel expenses as "purse or scrip".

      It is either out of the fear of being wrong or a reluctance to find truth that a person will not let go of something familiar. After all, if familiarity is safety then why let go? It takes more faith to search out real truth wherever it leads than to accept familiarity out of fear of being wrong.

      Delete
  16. People, regardless of race, have bad things happen because of sin, because of agency. Agency and sins infringe on the rights of others, period. If I were to take 2 Nephi 5:21 in the literal I would say that first, no one exist on this earth as being true white, or true black. Therefore, again I believe it is referring to countanance. But, if you really want to refer to it as race I sure wouldn't have read that to mean Indian's because they are a light brown. Anyone coming close to this description would be Africans because they are very dark brown. I am aware of the history of the church not allowing black/African Americans to hold the priesthood,though they were allowed in the church. (And again, most churches during that time didn't allow blacks in their church.)

    I'm not brainwashed as you would have me to believe. I converted late in life. Through my father I was conditioned to question everything, including the American government. I was conditioned not to trust the American government. In fact as a result of my conditioning I question motives of everyone and everything. I am very capable of independent thought. I have learned through my life to not announce when I disagree with any majority because it seems to cause stress to those around me. Through my conversion process, so to speak, I've learned that there are no scriptures, anywhere that is 100% accurate. For scriptures to be 100% accurate humans would have to be 100% accurate. However, human's are not perfect or accurate. In not being perfect they will put their own spin on things. I have also learned that just as there are language differnces in translations throughout the world, when it pertains to Heavenly things there are language differences as well.

    A part of what makes this church true is your ability to receive personal revelation. Personal revelation that guides you AND teaches you what is true, what is right. Since I have learned about this church I know that hatred of anyone one, any race is NOT taught in this church. It isn't hinted at either. However, if someone were looking for a reason to turn their back on this church, or to hate it I can imagine they will focus on whatever negative they can find. Is this church perfect? NO! Is it true? Yes! If you want you can think of it being true by default. Your problem is you are not thinking in the big picture. You are not looking at the history of world. You are looking at the small picture. You are not thinking beyond the earthly world, and looking toward there being an eternity. And as long as you are thinking small you'll never see a whole picture.

    Your view is clouded by your hatred and your desire to prove that the church is wrong. Your thoughts basically are black, your thoughts are cloaked in black. There is a book I read that paints an different picture, if you read it with the whole world in mind it is called, "The Outliers."

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Since I have learned about this church I know that hatred of anyone one, any race is NOT taught in this church. It isn't hinted at either."

      That is absolutely correct and true. But you have to ask yourself, can racism still happen without hate? Does racism exist even with love? Brigham Young has the answer:

      "Again to the subject before us; as to The men bearing rule; not one of the children of old Cain, have one partical of right to bear Rule in Government affairs from first to last, they have no buisness there. this privilege was taken from them by there own transgressions, and I cannot help it"

      "It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed of Cain for servants, but those they serve should use them with all the heart and feeling, as they would use their own children, and their compassion should reach over them, and round about them, and treat them as kindly, and with that humane feeling necessary to be shown to mortall beings of the human species."
      http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Slavery,_Blacks,_and_the_priesthood

      You see, the second Mormon prophet taught the church to love, not hate. At the same time, he taught that Blacks should never be in government over whites. He taught that it was a blessing to whites to have black slaves. But it is all acceptable because hatred is not taught.

      The only haters are the people who point out these truths. Only a hater would show that Mission Presidents are paid instead of volunteering. Only a hater would show that the church tells mission presidents to hide their income so it does not get taxed.

      Slavery with love is acceptable to God. Racism does not happen as long as those doing it are loving their victims. And hiding income, evading taxes and lying is all good if it is for the greater good of the church.

      Delete
    2. Do you really think we need Moronism to receive personal "revelation"? You're in too deep. Its funny you think you are looking at the big picture without being disturbed with what is going on behind the scenes. Its called "distraction". You are focused on the facade in front of you (tailored to elicit strong swelling emotions called the "Spirit") and you will give anything for it. Good for you, here's a cookie. But for the adults in the room, the distraction has faded, lost its luster to reveal the decay beneath the guilded exterior. No one has to try hard to find evidence of deceit in the Church. Proving it's wrong is different than exposing its wrongs, which is what Dave is doing. Your methods of discussing this topic fall flat on those who use their mental capacities to configure sound arguements. For now, we can only agree to disagree since you show no aptitude to apply new information to form your own opinions. Good luck with that.

      Delete
  17. Who gives a rats butt if the church believes the person the BofM is referring to is Columbus? In the larger picture it doesn't mean a thing! The Mormon's as a religion didn't exist until long after this nation became a nation. Until long after the land had the Indians had been moved around. To blame one religion, which is what you are doing, is hatred and anger. Horrible things have been done throughout history in the name of religion and in the name of other causes.

    You know what is strange about your claims? Is I have been a part of this church since 2005 and this is the first I have heard that the church is racist against Indians. I have heard this said about blacks, but never Indians. That is why I think you are crazy, nuts, whatever way you want to look at it. I haven't lied or accused you of anything other than addressed the very strong impressions you have given in your writings.

    Btw, Matejoh, I'm not a baby that is holding on to a blanket I've had since infancy. Remember, I'm a convert...I'm not clinging to a belief I've had all of my life. I am well aware of the world, and lived a very colorful, so to speak, life. I'm older with lots of life experience. I don't fall into the catagory you'd like to put me in. I have no fear of discovering something I didn't know about this church. As I have said I investigated everything I could put my hands on about this church. Negative and positive things. I don't know what it is like to hang on to something familiar because that hasn't been my life experience.

    Racism is not being taught in this church, which makes the liar.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Only your religion has canonized scriptures claiming that God's wrath was on the Indians at the arrival of Columbus and the Europeans and it only gets better for Indians when they become Mormon.

      The teachings about the arrival of the Europeans matter very much because the rest of the world is beginning to renounce the Doctrine of Discovery. Your religion cannot because the basis of it is encompassed in your scriptures.

      You are very uninformed and naive about current Indian affairs. You need a short overview. American Indians are not just other ethnic minorities. The U.S. constitution applies to them in very specific ways that no other minorities have. Tribal nations are sovereign nations. In the U.S., there is the federal government, state governments and Indian nations. The Indians are limited in their ability to govern their own affairs because the Doctrine of Discovery was incorporated into U.S. law.

      For example, did you know that the highest number of rapes and assault by whites against any other race in the U.S. are against Indians? But non-Indians cannot be prosecuted on reservations by Indians. Why? Because the Doctrine of Discovery became incorporated into elements of U.S. law. The results are horrendous. Recently, one reservation referred 109 sexual assault reports to the U.S. Attorney's office. Only nine were accepted as "cases", only six eventually were prosecuted. The victims go without justice and the perpetrators know they will not be charged and sentenced, and tribal governments cannot do a thing about it.

      Try to see it this way: If Utah were not allowed to prosecute non-Mormons for rape and assault on Mormon women and all such cases had to be turned over to federal jurisdiction, and were ignored, don't you think Mormons would have good grounds to complain?

      It is crucial to get the Doctrine of Discovery elements of U.S. law overturned for the justice of women and other victims. Your religion is the only one that has such ideas canonized.

      You speak lightly of "loss of land" but you are clueless to what Mormon politicians and attorneys did in the 1950s with the Indian Termination policy. It was a misguided attempt to undo the U.S. Constitution and remove Indians nation status. The results were devastating. In Utah, over half of the Paiutes died, between the 1950s and 1980. The deaths that policy caused in Utah and other tribes in other states is still being recovered from. And at this very moment, Canada is attempting a similar policy. There is a huge protest going on right now to keep indigenous land rights and indigenous nation's right to govern themselves.

      If you wish to belong to a church that claims to have an ancient history of America, don't you think it would be appropriate to become informed of current issues concerning the American Indians?

      Have you ever heard of Spencer W. Kimball's infamous conference talk of October 1960? He claimed that Indian children in the school placement program were turning white. Your church is very racist to American Indians. You should get educated about it. It will be much better for you than living in denial.

      Delete
  18. @ Adult Convert

    I was an adult convert and an adult deconvert. Anyone who joins the church in within say, the last 10 years or is a younger BIC certainly doesnt have a very good handle on where the church has been in this racist issue.

    I joined back in the 80s when the idea (and the church wont say its a DOCTRINE because it will get itself in trouble, yet EVERY member accepted it as such) that the LAMANITEs with DARK SKIN were going to blossom as a rose in the latter days. Those days were being fulfilled right in front of our eyes.

    I cannot give you any footnotes to printed publication but i do remember hearing deadership say while at BYU that the lamanites skin would TURN WHITE as they became righteous.

    This whole cultural attitude was extremely egocentric of Mormon leadership and very objectifying to native americans as a whole. The LDS view of them as being destitute of spirituality and position is just as destructive as the US government dealings. If you know anything about recent, well, and past, church history and its dealings with Native Americans you would know full well the church treated them as a commodity and not people to reach its own selfish goals.

    What i find despicable about the Mormon church is its way of frequently redifining itself to get out of trouble with the past and tantalize new converts. The church today isnt the church i joined 30 years ago.

    Please dont be defensive. I understand what attracts you to the church. But, sadly, your constant defending it makes you look, well, deluded. Which you are. And I once was. The church is deluding you on purpose. I hope you will come to see what is really going on. My name is Becky.

    ReplyDelete
  19. I actually am laughing at your last two posts. Really? You are so arrogant and self rightous it is hilarious. You are so full of your own "intelligence," that you can't see that you are focused only on man, not God, MAN! And as long as you are focused on man they will NEVER measure up to perfection! No man will be 100% right because they are imperfect! One minute you are pointing out how the church teaches racism against Indians and the next you talk about how they teach racism against blacks. Which is it? Or, is it both? Have it your way buddy, if it makes you hate the church more go for it! You can chase your own tail. Dave is such a wonderful MAN, ha! You are putting your faith in a MAN, a 100 percent imperfect MAN! By the way, did you see Jesus or Heavenly Father preventing slavery in the Bible? Did you see or read of Jesus going about preaching that slavery is wrong and should end? No! Because that was a result of agency, imperfection and sin! Jesus, Heavenly Father cannot interfere with that which is a result of sin/agency! Yes, he will occasionally help, but not on a constant basis because he can't, it will interfere with the ultimate ending. The only time he fully interfered was when he flooded the earth and when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. And he did that because the sin that was taking place on a huge scale would have ended humanity sooner than the plan. If you are looking for ways to lose faith in anything there are tons of ways to do that, WHEN YOU PUT YOUR FAITH IN MAN!

    It isn't JUST personal revelation I receive, it is this Jeremiah 33.3

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Your church is racist, and guess what? The perpetrators don't have the luxury of defining what is and is not racist. It is racist in the very definitions that have been accepted by the nations of the world.

      I showed you the statements about Blacks and Brigham Young to teach the very important concept that racism is not just about hatred. It happens even by those who love. What kind of a game are you playing? As if it is one or the other; Indians or Blacks?

      Now to the most important matter. You keep talking about bad things and free agency. But you are either running from my points or trying to create a diversion. This nonsense about God preventing slavery is 180 degrees opposite of what I have been trying to educate you on. Here, let me try again. The Bible does not say that God commands men to keep slaves. What if it did? Then your agency argument is a moot point because slavery would have been from God.

      Do you get it yet? Bad things happen because of agency but only Mormon scriptures claim that God's wrath was on the Indians and his blessing on the Europeans. Those bad things were the work of your God. God gave the lands to the Europeans for their promised land. That is what your canonized Book of Mormon says in 1 Nephi 13. That is NOT agency of men, it is the design and purpose of your God.

      I am sick to my stomach that you laugh. Do you think that human rights are entertaining and comical?

      Delete
  20. @Becky,

    You apparently are so deluded that you haven't read a word I wrote. Because I have said over and over and over again that I have read everything I could get my hands on including internet blogs and pages. Again, when you put your faith in man it will always fail, always come up short!

    ReplyDelete
  21. Also@Becky, before I converted I looked and searched on line. For some odd reason I did what everyone kept telling me not to do. I reading negative things. My family is steeped deep in mainstream Christian churches. I have relatives that are ministers, deacons etc. My parents who had been divorced over forty years that avoided talking, suddenly started talking about their child converting to Mormonism. They would give me some information or scripture pointing out how wrong the Mormon church was wrong, how it is a cult, if they could find something negative they let me know about it. And I would read it and look things up. In all of my reading as I have said before, I never found or read anything negative about the church and Indian people. NOTHING! I can understand how some things can be buried, or hidden. But, there have been people like Dave that has fallen away and have this need to prove the church wrong. In doing so, I seriously doubt that racism against the Indians would be totally lost. You actually do not understand what attracts me to the church. I'm not a poster child for the church. I wasn't attracted to church in any of the usual ways. In fact you could say I went kicking and scream into the church. I had a co-worker that I would make nasty comments to about this church. And the co-worker would basically tell me either what I heard wasn't true, or it is in the Bible. I converted intellectually before I converted by spirit so to speak. If you have read what I said you'd have read what I have written you would have understood I have converted to this church with my eyes wide open.

    ReplyDelete
  22. @the other anon,

    You are the one that is chasing your tail. I understand that you're are saying the Europeans used Christianity and an excuse to take land from the Indians. I don't believe I'm being especially cold hearted because I don't feel what you think I should feel about the Indians plight. But see although I'm not Indian, I have have had a super tough life. Like the Indians I didn't get to choose the circumstances I was born in. (At least not that my memory can recall. I don't have any land, and my ancestors didn't leave me land because they were super poor. In fact on one side of my family they were in Oklahoma during the Dust Bowl time. At one point when they were making their way to California they lived in a tent for two years! They were treated badly by the folks in California, folks didn't like Okies. When I grew up my step father was black. (He is dead now.) I used to have to hear my dad make racist comments about blacks, he hated them. Because I was white people some white folks didn't know about my black father and mixed brother. They would make racist comments to me because they assumed because I was white I must be a racist too. I lived in an all black neighborhood and grew up in that culture. I was also jumped simply because I was white. I tell you all of this as a way to explain why I don't really care what has happened to any particular race, including Indians. I am not saying that any one race should ever be treated badly. What I am saying is that because of agency, NOT FREE agency, cause agency isn't free. But, because of agency, because of sin crappy things happen! In fact a lot more crappy things happen to people because of poverty and the heartlessness of rich people than what has been done to Indians. You have a cause apparently that you want to rectify, and in doing it you want to slam the LDS church. I say you're barking up the wrong tree. I say this church has 98 percent of the picture correct. I say their teachings make more sense than any other religion I have investigated. My God is not trampling on human rights. Humans are trampling on human rights.

    ReplyDelete