Tuesday, April 9, 2013

Rumor Rumor, Every Where, Nor Any Fact To Think?

Rumor rumor, every where,
And all the boards did shrink;
Rumor rumor, every where,
Nor any fact to think?

(with apologies to Samuel Taylor Coleridge, RIP)

On April 6, 2013 Grant Palmer, former CES teacher and author of two outstanding books (1 & 2) on issues in the LDS church, released a statement through an anonymous blog about his meeting with mission presidents and a first quorum of the seventy member of the LDS church. 

Many many people have called the account fable and rumor.  I’ve heard these experiences since last November, and Grant alluded to them (with the mission presidents) in the exmormon foundation conference (where he also mentioned my public resignation) last October (2012).  Late Sunday (April 7), Grant reconfirmed to me personally that the account is indeed from him and that the unnamed General Authority (GA) is fully aware of its posting.  That does not mean that the opinions given by the mission president or GA are fact.  I want it to be very clear that I believe Grant Palmer is of the highest integrity. That some of the claims aren't factual doesn't mean Grant has failed in reporting what he has experienced. It is what it is.  Grant told me: "I even find some of it hard to believe. But the report is a chance to shake the tree and see what will come of it..."

Here are some of the statements and claims, bulleted. 

Most probable factual claims
  • The mission president and GA wish to remain unnamed/anonymous
  • The GA went to MormonThink.com regularly and there found a link to Palmer’s book.
  • The GA and his wife read Grant’s Insider and determined neither the church nor its foundational claims are true.
  • The GA gave the book to the mission president, who is also a closet doubter.
  • The GA and MP have met with Palmer three times since October 23 (a month after Mormonthink was bantered in national media).
  • They are now meeting monthly (hopefully watching their collective asses now that LDS-COB know Grant is meeting these unnamed high level dissenters).
  • None of the apostles have ever admitted directly to him that they did not believe.
  • The apostles are entirely enmeshed in every detail of their lives in the church.
  • The anonymous blog is named “journey of loyal dissent” (apparently posted by Christopher Ralph, UK member/dissenter).
  • The GA and mission president both attend church each Sunday and feel hypocritical and trapped.

Less probable factual claims
  • The GA had one-on-one conversations with apostles sometime in the past.
  • The primary consideration of election of a new apostle is being “church broken” and fully loyal to the other apostles.
  • The six senior apostles mentor the junior six who are told to obey, listen and learn.
  • The six senior apostles run the show in the quorum.
  • The Q12 is quite isolated from the several Q70s, which used to enjoy more contact with apostles when there was only one Q70.
  • The first presidency was involved in the decision of Grant Palmer’s disciplinary court.

Highly speculative
  • Each new member of the Quorum of the 12 apostles receives one-million dollars for financial obligations.
  • The million dollars is called a “gift”.
  • It takes two or three years for a new apostle to learn the church is in fact false.
  • D. F. Uchtdorf took longer because of his non-Utah heritage.
  • The GA has learned indirectly by interaction with apostles that eventually they all learn the church is not true.
  • Apostles talk amongst themselves about how the church is false. (It’s not clear how this could be known)
  • The apostles obedience/loyalty to each other are part of the reasons keeping them from blowing the whistle on the church.
  • Apostles justify staying the course because people need the church. (It’s not clear how this could be known)
  • Apostles do not like to discuss truth issues with Q70s members.
  • The apostles would rather die defending the church than admit it is false.
  • The church is a weakened dam about to burst with apostates.

Many of the speculative claims contradict some of the less probable or more probable claims. For example, if the GA  never heard one of the apostles ever admit directly to him that they did not believe, then how could he know they talk amongst themselves about the falsity of the church?  How could he know how they justify staying with their sure knowledge of its falseness?  How could he know they get paid so much hush money?  (Well, they could have talked about forgivable loans/gifts without referring to it as hush money.) How could he know they would rather die than to admit it’s false?

For these contradictory reasons, I have place some claims in the speculative group.

However, I have received corroborating statements (rumors) about some of the less probable and some speculative claims. 
1) an unnamed source who works with land development told me independently that properties are purchased by the LDS church for apostles through a developer named Ivory Homes LTD. 
2) One such home is still listed under Ivory, but presumably will be possessed  (Parcel 00-0020-5898)  by Apostle David Bednar soon.
3) A COB employee who handles financial work has seen evidence suggesting payments made for the apostles and others are part of a loan they receive which have no payment schedules correlated (i.e., gifts disguised as loans).
4) MT’s current managing editor has said that Apostle Holland told him that as a new apostle he was at the “beck and call” of senior apostles who took up most of his time when he was a junior. 
5) A current exmormon who was being groomed to be a general authority said he was told by a COB employee who worked with him that the employee’s number one role was to get the man “church broke” (the first time the man had heard that term). 
6) a COB lawyer affirmed that all high level church employees and volunteers who have access to any financial information at the church sign non-disclosure agreements (NDA). 
7) The NDAs are life-long binding agreements whose violations have strict civil penalties and can result in having any and all property used by the employee/worker/volunteer removed immediately; force repayment of all past and current considerations, benefits and perks retained or enjoyed by the employee; revoke any and all associations, contracts (book deals) or other financial arrangements owned, leased or facilitated by church companies; and potentially revoke academic or other honors bestowed upon the employee or family of the employee which are assigned to them through their association with church companies, universities or other institutions.
8) Reported by various persons (former members in public forums) is that family members of high-level authorities in the church receive many financial and vocational opportunities of employment or business dealings because of their father/brother/grandfather’s church ranking. 
9) There is legal action occurring abroad against the church which may force the financial information to open further and reveal more about the truth behind these rumors.  Stay tuned.  (these things take time and legal funds.)
10) Grant Palmer and Tom Phillips have been informed that likely all general authorities receive their second anointing which is another covenant to keep loyal to the church and not reveal its secrets; though not as binding as a legal NDA, it is much like a fraternity of life-long business and political associates who pledge at Ivy League. 
11) In June or July, there is rumored to be another foreign GA that will come forward and even in an interview disclose additional information on these matters.  Stay tuned.

My thoughts...  How likely is it that all the apostles are absolute doubters?  Each of them individually may fall in the spectrum of deluded conned man or full-out evil conman. But to believe that they are all deluded says that every last one of them is ridiculously idiotic about the reality they are supposedly defending. Of course, on the flip-side, one can argue, if they're all evil liars, that's a difficult-to-believe conspiracy.  Many will argue that such a conspiracy is unlikely to keep a lid on. Conspiracy is a bad word. This is a corporation with corporate trade secrets. These kind of secrets are kept all the time at the top of most large, diverse companies, with the knowledge compartmentalized with those having a need to know.  Even CEOs do not know all the trade secrets of the company because such details are far beyond a single human capacity to know. The kind of deals and financial arrangements made in any corporation is held tight. Secrecy in other (government) organizations is obviously not compromised as well.

But is this a criminal conspiracy? Not to the Q12/first presidency.

First of all, these men do not actually control the finances of the church. They're at its mercy. Much of their adult lives have been spun up and dedicated into one system. They are running the front-face of a massive corporation. The machinery is beyond them. But the rock-stardom it gives them reaches far into their extended family.  They're all surfing a wave created by doctrinal policy sausage grinders they couldn't themselves stomach if they knew it all.

They have a lot of perks.  They have fans. They have trips.  They have ranches, hunting preserves, malls, cultural centers and throngs to enjoy.  They have books ghost written and command austere obedience on demand.  Not only do they already have many more book deals with their own bookstore (deseret book), they have families with prestige in the state of UT that brings about business opportunities for their children and many of their grandchildren.

Not one of them is actually that talented at this late point in life in scriptural scholarship or academic studies. While they may not need it to write a church dismantling tome, they will need the credibility when one of them alone stands, as an old (potentially senile) man, against a unanimous quorum. Without significant credibility, charges of senility will absolutely ring true for 99% of members.

A single book deal exposing it will fall flat. The family of that man will be utterly disgraced. The business they built and reputation they have will be dismantled. Not the church.

Better to stay the course and slowly reform it without upsetting the family apple cart.

The church has become stagnate and decorated like described in another stanza of Coleridge's poem:

Day after day, day after day,
We stuck, nor breath nor motion;
As idle as a painted ship,
Upon a painted ocean.

The anonymous GA is leading people to truth in a frozen land of hidden financed schemes.   Will the church leaders pursue the dissenting, closeted GA?  Are they going to kill the albatross and hang it around their necks? 

I'll post more rumors here in this blog as they come to me in the next week...

Hidden things won't stay that way for long.


  1. There is no way that any of this true. If it were, the men in the quorum of the twelve would have exposed it decades or centuries ago. A 180 year old conspiracy? The apostles are loving, honest and wonderful men who would never perpetuate such lies. You're off your rocker!

    1. Not to say that there are not lies in this Steven, but you must consider. There is a little bit of truth in everything. It's the finding of the truth that can get a bit tricky...

      Now I'm not saying you should trust in rumors, but you're off YOUR rocker if you think the apostles are perfect men perfectly capable of doing everything within the church perfectly.

      As to what Unknown said, there was many GA excommunicated for various reasons. I do not know all the reasons for this, but I would not be surprised if we see more chaos like this within the future. But not in a hush, hush manner like the church likes to try and keep it now. I see things as being on a time bomb for everyone to see what's REALLY going on.

    2. Without doubting Grant's sincerity at all, I find it hard to believe that this conspiracy would have stayed in tact through the Taylor/Cowley problems back in 1905 and the Apostle Lyman fiasco back in 1943. Maybe Lyman thought that he would soon be reinstated back into the quorum of 12 and that's why he never revealed the secrets. Or maybe he got bought off. Or maybe he really believed the Church to be honestly the one and only. I wish we could ask him today.

  2. Steven Sorenson -- What evidence do you have that the apostles are honest with the finances of the church? They stopped all financial transparency in the 1950's. Do you know something the rest of us don't? Why don't you share it here?

  3. Anonymous,

    Steven knows they are honest because they told him they are obviously. And if they were't telling the truth to him they would be lying... but they don't lie, they told him themselves, so therefor they have to be telling the truth, because they don't lie, because they told him they don't lie... If they were lying they wouldn't be honest, and we know they are honest because they told us they are honest... (this is getting confusing... maybe i'm missing something here)


    1. Because we all know that the apostles are perfect people who never told a lie!


  4. Add me to the camp that believes that most of them know it's false.

    Come on, look at Monson. They all know he's just a puppet at this point. I'm sure there's a ton of talk before things like conference about what he will say (if he speaks at all), who will sit with him and babysit him, etc.

    When it comes to things like not having any genuine revelation in decades, knowing about the finances, knowing that the missionary program is really just a retention/indoctrination program, that the temple is a sham, NEVERMIND all of the church history stuff... Of course they know all of that.

    So, how can you know all of that, and still have a testimony? I'm not at all surprised by the rumors of money being handed out- you'd have to buy loyalty like that.

    1. Knowing all of that and still having a testimony is simple...


      I'm sure it was hard for Jesus to believe the Jews were God's covenanted people during His time. The pharisees sat in Moses' seat as the prophet and apostles do today. And come on, we all know how corrupt they were! Jesus criticized them in Matthew 23 in case you don't know the obvious on that one. Then, let's not forget that the Jews SOLD animals that were to be used for burnt offerings inside the temple. Talk about one defiled temple, eh?
      Jesus was so outraged by this that he flipped over the money exchanger's table saying they made his house a den of thieves. Then let us not forget how many times the Jews stoned Jesus, and then the fact that they eventually crucified him.

      How is the temple today any more holy? There's more sins you can do inside the temple than just sell the animals you're supposed to use for sacrifices. For example... idolatry. Taking the viewpoint that the endowment is Free Masonry that was never intended to be something religious, I wonder what Jesus would do today during the endowment ceremony to throw everyone off? Don't you? Would the prophet and apostles today chase Jesus out as the pharisees did? Let's say you're a temple worker and you're taking Jesus through the endowment for the first time during his mortal life. Now imagine Jesus standing at the temple veil putting out his fist and saying, "Pound it," to the temple worker behind the veil. Then when the temple worker standing next to him asks, "Why aren't you doing the usual hand symbols? Stop fooling around." He looks him/her square in the eye and says, "I have not done the hand symbols because Satan's evil secret combination. Is a man or woman saved up into the kingdom of heaven by a secret handshake?" Then started lecturing all who is there about what the father had him do on the cross. (You must consider. Jesus WAS that bold... Even so bold, that now that I think about it... they would probably actually kick Him out of the temple long before that from saying something during the earlier part of the endowment.))

      Oh, I'd have to say believing in the LDS Church today is about as difficult as believing in the Lord's covenanted church during Jesus' time. For somewhat different reasons, but overall because the whole flipping organization is corrupt with corrupt leaders. But Jesus did still believed in the parts that were true... So why can't we?

    2. "But Jesus did still believed in the parts that were true... "

      Jesus instituted a new law. He was held in contempt by the Jews who wanted their old law, much like dissenters are held in contempt by the LDS church.

      As a dissenter myself, I would say:

      Ye have heard it said that a man and woman must marry in the LDS temple to be united eternally, but I say unto you God will eternally unite whom He will without regard for where they were married.

      To me this is the higher law that the LDS church does not teach. Rather, they hold this idea in contempt.

  5. If they don't know it's false, they at least know the church is not 100% honest and open. As they like to teach in conference, letting someone believe a lie and not correcting them is the same as if you have lied to them yourself.

  6. I was surprised to see "GAs do not talk to seventies about truth issues" listed under highly speculative. That would've been in the "most probable" column for me.

    I feel like GAs don't like to discuss truth issues directly with anyone. In the inner circles of the leadership, it seems like those issues would be avoided even more than usual in favor of administrative, business aspects. Truth claims would be taken for granted and ignored and a "work must go forward" mentality would prevail.

    Although I've hardly more than rubbed shoulders with a few seventies myself, so I'm not exactly in the know. It's just how I'd guess things would work.

  7. If the GAs would drink a glass of wine together ones in a while, they would have confessed to each other already that no one ever received a direct revelation and accepting that the church is a corporation

  8. If any of you were to watch general conference and actually listen with an open mind to what the brethren say, you would know in your heart that they are good, honest, caring men. They would not say the loving things they do if they were half of what this blogs claims. Pathetic!

    1. You have a lot to learn. Maybe one day when you grow up and have a little bit of life experience, you'll be able to extract your head from your butt. You live in a land of delusion. But hey, if that helps you sleep good at night, then more power to you. Just be careful though because reality is a cruel taskmaster. When you get bitch-slapped by it, it's gonna hurt.

    2. I agree Steven! These are great men! They tell us they are! They insist that we know how great they are and they do so much good for the world... except I am having a hard time actually finding the good things right now. Give me a minute and I will find something, I'm sure of it.

  9. Actually Steven, I was doing that very thing, listening with an open mind, when I realized the BS I was hearing. The sing-songy carefully worded and metered phrases delivered in hypnotic "moonie" fashion is what woke me up to the lies. There was a General Conference a few years ago followed closely by one of the first satellite leadership broadcasts in local ward buildings. Blame it on my advertising and design major, but all of it was so over-the-top in manipulative syrupy sweetness, that my BS meter got tripped. It reminded me of a JW Watchtower publication come to life. That, and many other things in rapid succession were the beginning of the end for me, so your idea of what brings "truth" to you isnt the same for others. Remember, even Jeffrey Dahmer was described as a kind, soft-spoken, harmless young man.

  10. Where do you get all the photos for your blog? They're so different.

    1. I have wondered the same thing many times. I just did a search on the copyright info in the lower right hand corner "surreal model photography" and it yielded nothing. I wonder if Dave takes them?


  11. I agree. I think we are just starting to see a church leadership that is coming to the realization that it is not true. I think for the large majority of the church history the leaders have believed it was 100% true. The knowledge of this sham has only been made obvious to the top with the availability of the internet and information. Prior to this there was no reason for them to doubt.

  12. The 'factual' basis for the GA's subjective belief that the Q15 do not believe is simply that they avoid discussion of the foundational claims of the church. And they WILL have learned some uncomfortable truths. It is important to remember the context of these revelations: The GA is discussing his faith crisis and personal beliefs with Grant Palmer, and it is his subjective opinion that the Q15 MUST know the church is false if they know the truth about its foundational claims, because that is the way he feels himself. Neither Grant nor the GA are claiming as objective fact that the Q15 categorically believe the church is false. I think that is a fair interpretation of the information Grant has provided.

    I feel the same way myself, I find it hard to understand how someone else can know the same facts about the church that I know, yet still think that it is true. In this case, I think the GA has equated knowledge that (for example) the official first vision never happened with knowledge that the church is false. Many apostles may be comfortable with alternative accounts of the restoration, or have way of rationalizing and keeping their testimony.

    1. My closest friend is a bishop. His brother is fairly up there in CES. I'm recently out of the closet as a non-believing Mormon (consider myself atheist now). My friend and I are having a conversation about why I no longer believe. At some point in the conversation we discuss all the dirty laundry of the Church. He nods his head, agrees with the points I make, tosses in a few more points of his own about the fact that the church is in it to keep growth up and the coffers full and not necessarily to espouse truth, etc., etc. Says his bro thinks the same way as him. I ask how he could possibly stay in the church, especially as a bishop. He says that he does believe in the atonement, and that's what keeps him going He accepts everything else as mostly BS, figures most of the GAs are like him as far as knowledge of what's wrong, but he believes the atonement will take care of all the wrongs and errors of the church. That's how he rationalizes it. Personally, I think that's pretty whacked, but I guess that's one answer to your question spanner. I don't find it a satisfying answer, but there are definitely people in leadership positions in the church who make it work for them.

  13. Yes, the surreal photos are mine. I'm a published ultraviolet/infrared artistic photographer, having helped established the art form of full spectrum photography over a decade ago. thank you for asking.

    1. Brilliant!!! Do you have an online gallery/shop?

  14. All the theological trickeration aside try living in a state where these people control the political, economic, legal and educational systems. They use this same BS to run the most corrupt, repressive and conservative state bar none. They create poor people and kids to have cheap labor to work at their resorts and retail business so they can then "help" them with some bread and giving them "work" at church/company enterprises. I live in the poorest area of SLC and what I see they do to "help" and it is the most disgusting part of their whole deal. THey are rude, condescending, sanctimonious, self-righteous and for the most part just do it 'cause they are supposed do. They drive down from the foothills in their 60K SUV to help us.

  15. So...I was trying to figure out who this 70 was from the facts above. He is in the first quorum. That narrows it down to 70 people. He has been in for several years. That narrows it down to 30-40. He had one on one conversations with the 12 back when there was only one quorum. That takes it down to Carlos Amado, the only current 70 who was serving in 1989 when the second quorum was organized. Unfortunately, Elder Amado was called on the same day the 2nd quorum was created. Moreover, he lives in Central American, which would make it difficult to have those monthly meetings. I guess that means no 70 fits the description. Hmmmm.

  16. Seems like an awful lot of conjecture on the part of Grand Palmer.

  17. Mormonism is based entirely on conjecture. I got my BA from byu, what a phony university. I resigned from the LDS church in the mid 1990's. Several years I went to the aid of Joe Collet, we met at the student branch in San Francisco, my hometown. I was new to the church, innocent and naïve! Joe had moved around and now he'd been in St. George, he turned out to be a liar, and not a good one! I think a lifelong practice of Mormonism de-humanizes people, especially men. His wife Becky is Mitt Romney's cousin and her brother is Park Romney. I regret Mormonism's role in my life!

  18. I think that given that absolutely nothing came from any of this Grant Palmer has lost even more credibility.

  19. lol, this is so amusing. My goodness, that one man would spend so much time on this. It makes me laugh so hard, ahaha.

  20. i have read in the church magazine members of the Q12 officially saying that if you think you can find a perfect person among the leaders of the church you will be wrong. He added that but when you want to see a perfect doctrine of salvation, it is found in the church. Well, this makes sense as we all know that nobody is ever perfect man in the whole world except for Jesus Christ. But when they keep on repeating this saying, they are meant to entrench themselves in an unspoken claim of infallibilitysince it will redound to a justification of their own wrongs. there is big difference when the church leaders would be acting as the vicars of the Lord and when they are acting, most of the time as the pontiff of the corporate person of the church. we have been told that there is the united order which says everybody should be equal in terms of everything in the church and this united order is buttressed by the law of consecration where everyone is commanded to dedicate everything he got onto the Lord God and then the law of the land doctrine which is taught as a saintly doctrine helps to cover the acts especially the financial administration of the church income as a gift from members which can not be called back nor be claimed back under any circumstance or for whatever reason including technical and qualified malverzation of the church funds. Never question the authority of the general authorities of the church and even if they are doing wrong things, they should be left alone as it is considered a sin to criticize any of them. there are more doctrines which contravene to the foundational teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ leaving all of us lobotomized. But just the same, we have to be cautious in attacking these people because we might find ourselves kicking against the pricks. God bless us all. I am a voice crying from the wilderness. sometimes i feel that there are CIA in our midst and one high officer of the church jokingly admits: we are CIA but it stands for Christ In Action. I don't find it funny at all.