Saturday, March 15, 2014

Fraud Case First Day Official Release

From the MormonThink Editors

For immediate release

Press contact: David Twede
mormonthinkblog@gmail.com  

JUDGE HEARS DAY-LONG ARGUMENTS IN MORMON FRAUD CASE
Case may advance to Crown Court for trial; judge will announce ruling on Thursday


Saturday, March 15.   After a full day of arguments in front of a British magistrate yesterday, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ legal counsel failed to get dismissed fraud charges against the Church’s Prophet, Seer and Revelator, Thomas Monson.  Instead, Church leaders will wait until Thursday, March 20, to learn the next steps in the case.  On that day, the judge will announce whether the fraud case will proceed to Crown Court for trial.    

At yesterday’s hearing, Church attorneys attempted to discredit the case in two ways.  First, they argued that the fraud charges emanated from a grudge.  They claimed that Thomas Phillips, the British subject who instigated the fraud charges, was a “disaffected” Mormon whose problems with the church were personal, not legal in nature.  Second, the Mormon legal team declared that religious teachings and matters of belief are outside the sphere of criminal law.  They argue the charges against Monson are on the basis of his beliefs and not about facts which Monson may or may not have spoken.

Phillips’ legal team clarified that religions are not above the law.  They cited examples of lay and clerical members of religious institutions convicted of serious crimes in the United Kingdom.   Focusing in on the case at hand, Phillips’ attorneys showed how specific LDS Church representations, particularly its deceptive use of the term, “translate,”  are consistent with the illicit acts covered in the United Kingdom’s Fraud Act of 2006.  These particular representations, argues Phillips, are statements of fact by LDS leaders, including Monson, and subject to scrutiny under the Fraud Act.  The Act stipulates three types of fraud Phillips’ counsel affirmed that the Church carried out:  fraud by false representation; fraud by failing to disclose information; and fraud by abuse of position.   If the case proceeds to trial in Crown Court, Phillips’ team will need to further substantiate, corroborate and verify each charge in detail.

    David Twede, the Phillips case’s spokesperson, remarked that,  “Today’s hearing shows us that the British legal system takes those who violate its laws seriously, regardless of who they are and what kind of putative religious authority they speak from.  I’m glad we live in a day and age when certain governments can be enlightened enough to recognize that fraud is fraud.”

# # #


For further research, consult:
The Fraud Act 2006:  http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/fraud_act/

“LDS UK Fraud Case” on MormonThink.com: http://www.mormonthink.com/monson-summons.htm


I want to clarify a couple of points:  
1) Tom Phillips is still a member
2) Tom Phillips is not paid for his prosecution on this case.



The LDS Church can't seem to get its trees in a row

44 comments:

  1. I applaud the courage and work. Unfortunately, the courts must be used to compel rogue organizations to change and to hold them accountable. Religious organizations cannot be exempt from being held accountable. No religion (or in this case, let's face it...corporation) should be able to hide behind a "religious curtain" claiming no responsibility for abuses. This case feels like a strong one and may be unique among suits against religious entities. In this case, the lies are blatant and verifiable, tithing is in no way voluntary (they used to automatically take it out of pay checks of church employees and they still withhold the temple and service opportunities for nonpayers), and it is very clear who is responsible for fraudulent messages because there is a "prophet seer and revelator" leading the organization.

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    1. Annonymus, I am proud to say I was in the Court and Tom is totally transparent unlike the incompetent LDS legal teams. What the tell you is BELIEFS not FACTS. They made that very clear on the record in Court.

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    2. So how about a counter suit against Tom Phillips. I personally know members of the church who heard Tom Phillips, from the stand, as stake president, say he knew the church was true, that they should pay tithing, etc.

      Also members who received their recommends from him.

      What was his motivation? Did he only believe because someone else told him it was true? Or was he out for personal gain?

      Either way he appears to have been as guilty of fraud.

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    3. Andrew,

      You are obviously misunderstanding the definition of fraud. In order to commit fraud, one must be aware of the lies and continue to promote them. This is not the case with Tom. When he learned the real story of the Church's history, he stopped teaching the watered down version. He felt so strongly about it, that it cost him most of his family. Fraud would have been committed had he learned the truth yet continued to perpetuate the myth.

      Now compare that with the current leaders of the Church, Thomas Monson included. When they learned about the real story of the Church's history, what did they do with that information? They continued to hide it and promote the false version in order to retain/baptize members. That is fraud!

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    4. Andrew you obviously don't get it.. If you think that Tom Phillips is guilty of fraud, then that would make all of us, 1000"s that have discovered the truths and facts about the church guilty as well. I was a True Believing Member my entire life, 47 yrs.. And now as I have found the whole truth about the doctrine of the church, I too will take stand, so that my children and grandchildren, friends and family will not have to live though the lies, deceit, control, as I did.. This does not make any of us guilty of fraud!!! Brain Washed and Controlled, a true belief system that we trusted, YES. But Fraud NO. If Thomas S. Monson Truly did not know any of these hidden facts then he will be proven innocent, but if he did know, which we all know he does, then yes he is guilty.. A tough case for sure.

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    5. I get it. I am not sure you did. I don't believe either is guilty of fraud, because both are acting out of their beliefs, not fact.

      Tom Phillips has changed his beliefs based on increased knowledge. I have the same knowledge, and the appropriate 47 years, and have not change my beliefs. Why? Well mainly because I have known these "truths", that are becoming more widely known, for well over 20 years. And second, because my testimony of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is not centred in what anyone else, including President Monson, has to say.

      That is what belief/faith is. And apparently the Court agrees with me since the case has been dismissed.

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  2. "Tom Phillips is not paid for his prosecution on this case."
    Unless you count the thousand of dollars donated to him. He keeps promising to show some proof that this money is going to his lawyers but keeps failing to do so instead just telling people to take his word for it.
    I guess it is easier to be a hypocrite than to show a receipt.

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    1. You might want to question the how Mission Presidents and other positions "aren't paid". The church is far from exempt when it comes to loopholes and lies to get money.

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    2. Pot calling the kettle here -- How about the financial transparency of the Mormon Church -- they need to open their books and show where their money goes as well.

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    3. @Anonymous @2:22...the way this case went must be cutting you up inside. I'm as fascinated by YOUR motivations in this. Toms are clear, you on the other hand....

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    4. Haven't heard of anyone who has donated to him and his cause complaining... put some money in and then you can bitch about it

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    5. Do you not think Tom has had enough to do actually concentrating on the case hearing. I have no doubt he will honour his word and show all how money is dispersed. Plus, he could always send you as copy of his legal teams bill. I expect him to publish all online. Unlike the LDS church who will never show you there lawyers bill and expenses. I saw the LDS team go to a very expensive Hotel for lunch whilst Tom joined us at a very modest café.

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  3. This is so sad in certain ways (for the church and its believing members), yet at the same time a church that has always claimed to be the font of all truth, but does *in fact* deploy deceptive means and ways, has to be reigned in.

    Having been raised in the Mormon church as former ardent, believing participant I can honestly say that I benefited in so many ways. I am grateful, in fact. But at the same time I have to wonder would I have benefited to the extent that I did if the LDS church promoted itself as just ‘a good church’ but not claiming absolute Devine authority and authenticity? Would I have adhered to the Word of Wisdom, for example, that I KNOW was a real boon to my overall current health (I lost one aunt and three uncles due to smoking). And my mission experience and leadership growth opportunities, etc., were all of great benefit. There was a lot that benefited from. So, should I think of the Mormon church as being just a pious fraud? Or should I now regard it as being an organization that perpetuates fraudulent claims for the purpose of monetary gain to keep it going and growing. But no matter what, I suppose the key notion is the question of ‘fraud’ regardless of purpose.

    I don’t know.

    Just my thoughts.

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    1. Hi me from Cali. Thats a great question isn't it. All those good people around the world, seeing the positives of the Christian gospel foundations, but feeling confused by the obscene wealth of the corporate, and coming to terms with their religious experience being prescribed, and man made. It's hard to separate the religious, doctrines, practices and cultural (CULTural?) sometimes. My wife, kids and I left the church a few months ago. We "hung in there" thinking we could focus on the saviour, and help enrich others in the same way. Then one day we just woke up, it was like someone flicked a switch. We saw that spirituality WE were malnourished and not growing. Our covenants, of which forms of we still recognize that we stood in front of (as we believed was) God and made higher promises. But we recognized that we were really making promises to build the church, and we have all seen what Intellectual Reserve Inc, has become. We feel SO happy, so free since we left. We explore our spiritualily and Christianity in other ways, more authentic ways, and love it. And we now understand it when people and billboards say "god loves you, no matter what you do". God is so much bigger than the small, angry, bitter god the LDS church (TM) constructs for it's members.

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    2. It is all about the frame of mind you are coming from. As a convert from mainstream Christian churches I see the big picture. The big picture shows the beliefs of this church to be true. Are the people and leaders always following the teaching perfectly, absolutely not! However, I know for a fact that there are people that are in the Temple that do not follow the items that are required to be Temple worthy. Before this case has any veracity they would have to prove that everyone in the Temple is indeed Temple worthy. Every church preaches from its scriptures to tithe, and to do other things that the scriptures teach you should do. Every church repeats the promises that are spoken of in the scriptures. If the courts of the UK take this seriously it will have nothing to do with right or wrong it will be driven my the all mighty dollar. Think of all the tax money governments could garner from taxing churches!

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    3. "However, I know for a fact that there are people that are in the Temple that do not follow the items that are required to be Temple worthy"

      Yeah, how can this organization make these very bold claims about itself and it's temples, and then someone with the character of Utah former AG John Swallow turns out to have been a Mormon Bishop, with all the doctrinal/theological significance that being a mormon bishop holds, esp. in relation to what the temple and a TR is supposed to be? (I've been reading the investigation of Swallow this week) I mean come on. Certainly does not instill confidence in me about the whole structure and fundamental nature of this organization. Seems more like a lot of fraud to go around at the leadership levels.

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    4. You are talking about imperfect people, the church and the Lords plan is perfect, not its people.

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    5. Isn't perfection supposed to be like a sea of pure glass? Glass is transparent, how about your church?

      -J.K.

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    6. "You are talking about imperfect people, the church and the Lords plan is perfect, not its people."

      So... If, in order to be perfect, the church must be peopled by PERFECT people. Yet ALL people are imperfect; ergo anyone in ANY church makes said church imperfect.

      Time for THIS imperfect church [small "c"] to take its lumps.

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    7. That saying of "The Church is Perfect, the people aren't" can no longer hold...
      And as far as the Lords Plan, that's all a bunch of hog wash too. If the Lord created the Mormon Church, The Book Of Mormon and all its teachings. Why on Earth would there be so many changes in a perfect Church.. I totally agree that the church needs to answer for all things and own to all the lies and deceit, If they were to just teach and tell all the information, then allow the members to decide if they wanted to be a part of the religion still, that would be fine. But they hide things and right out lie. I know I want my children and grandchildren ,as well as myself to have more integrity than that. A big spoon full would help the medicine go down in this case.. OWN IT, AND APOLOGIZE,......

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    8. "It is all about the frame of mind you are coming from. As a convert from mainstream Christian churches I see the big picture. The big picture shows the beliefs of this church to be true. Are the people and leaders always following the teaching perfectly, absolutely not! However, I know for a fact that there are people that are in the Temple that do not follow the items that are required to be Temple worthy. Before this case has any veracity they would have to prove that everyone in the Temple is indeed Temple worthy."

      Your hypothesis is incorrect. If a company or corporation trains its employees (ie. bishops, missionaries...) from top to bottom to act and say things a specific way to sell their product, the corporation is accountable for how and what the employee sells if he/she is following the guidelines made by the corporation. If the corporation knowingly sells or causes to sell a defective or fraudulent product, the owner/manager (prophet) and those who stand to profit from it are therefore liable for the fraud, NOT the employees who knew nothing about it and stood to gain nothing financially. ...IMO

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    9. The mormon church claims that only mormon temple endowed and sealed human couples will reach the best, happiest places in an afterlife they call the celestial kingdom. The mormon church claims that this is the only way people can be with their families forever.

      The temple is quite central to the whole idea of Mormonism, everything revolves around it. How do you get into the temple, though? Is it through being a person of integrity and goodness and so on? No, that is not enough. You have to have permission to enter the mormon temple. Who is the gatekeeper to the temple? The mormon bishop is.

      John Swallow was a mormon bishop. What does that say about the temple, and thus, the mormon celestial kingdom?

      John Swallow holds the keys to the temple, and thus eternal consequences? What kinds of people does John Swallow bestow favors upon? John Swallow does not favor honest people, he favors people who pay him money. If a person with the character of John Swallow is deciding who gets in and who doesn't (and if John Swallow was a bishop, then given human nature and basic statistical analysis, there are many other bishops similar to him out there) then it looks to me like the whole idea of the temple is not what the mormon church says it is. Nothing special there at all. It's just a building, like any other building. A building with humans beings in it, some trying mostly to be good, some really pretty bad and not trying at all, some in between. Not a special group of people at all.

      At least John Swallow the AG gave the people who paid him some value for their money...until they got caught, anyway:) The ten percent he asked of people to enter the building known as the mormon temple really don't get anything of equal value in return. Fraud? Yes, I'd say so.

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    10. Not to mention the further fraudulent angle of the mormon temple: the theft and reselling of the marriage ceremony.

      The mormon church steals the natural right of the family and community to witness a marriage ceremony. The mormon church demands ransom in the form of tithing to have that stolen right returned.

      That's an unethical hustle, pure and simple.

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  4. The real issue here is simple, was their fraud? Was this a crime? Certainly it was. As a former Mormon, I knew that every year the bishop right around November would have a talk on tithing and in December, the members who were temple worthy had to sign up for tithing settlement to disclose whether they were full or part. If they chose Part, they would be denied a temple recommend. This recommend allowed for a first time temple mormon to get endowed and sealed to their family for all eternity. This temple recommend allowed for people/believers in that faith to be able to be with God, the father in heaven. So if the facts are that Mormonism is false, which it seems to support that, than this was a crime and fraud. This could be a big case that would allow many exmo's to get their tithing back. I know for me I gave over 100.000 dollars. If that happen the empire would be destroyed financially. I expect that the LDS church will change the requirements of entering the temple soon. This is big!

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    1. The Mormons instill fear in some of their members saying that if they aren't tithed then they will be burned at the second coming of Christ -- fire insurance.

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  5. it is a fraud, perpetrated by idiots, to the detriment of all mankind. the lawyers and loopholes in our laws will let it persist, until the good people of this world have had enough.

    the british courts are the finest anywhere. i pray for their enlightenment. please put an end to this fraud. it compromises the lives of millions of people.

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    1. Kevin, who are you praying to "for their enlightenment"? Virtually every religion could be sued. Legal proof that Jesus Christ was the son of God? Legal proof that Mohammad was visited by an angel? Legal proof that the Messiah will come? Every religion who accepts the Bible could be sued for the same "frauds." And then we start on nonbelievers who cannot prove that God does not exist. As for detriment of all mankind? Nonsense. There is plenty of scientific evidence the those ACTIVE in the religion are healthier, happier, enjoy better marriages, perform better in education, are more engaged in service, and youth in less trouble than the general population.

      Here is the bottom line for legal dummies: The religion has a clear disclaimer in the last chapter of the Book of Mormon often talked about. The Mormon religion does not teach that you believe anything because Tom Monson teaches it or believes it. Per Mormon scripture you are supposed to find out for yourself if it is true by studying it, pondering about it, and then sincerely praying and asking God personally if it is not true. I don't think it is anybody's fault but your own if you claim it was just in your head or you just accepted what somebody else to believed.

      And legally speaking there are millions of people who would testify that they have profited in one way or another from paying tithing just as promised. Many of them are not Mormons. Tithing is not just a Mormon thing. Oh, and there were witnesses to the Book of Mormon--over a dozen. That is legal proof. As a lawyer I would love to have that many witnesses on a case. Attack them if you like, but the key witnesses became upset with the Mormon founder, left the Church, but did not refute their testimony even with provocation. They reaffirmed. And stop with the whole evil corporation nonsense. It is pathetic. If the LDS Church did poorly financially then you would be saying that God was not with it because it is poorly run. If it does well then you say God is not with it because it is too successful. Monson does not get a percentage of tithing collected. He gets a stipend that is frankly less than any executive I have ever heard of with his responsibilities.

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    2. For Anonymous March 16, 2014 at 1:58 PM

      You clearly haven't done your homework. Read REAL HISTORY about one or more of the so-called witnesses who later admitted that he only saw the plates with "spiritual eyes," of the man who heard Joseph Smith admit it was all a lie, of Joseph Smith bragging that he did a greater work than Jesus, of the LDS claims that they don't have a paid ministry (calling it a "stipend" doesn't make it go away), of Joseph Smith coercing a 14 year-old girl to marry him by promising that if she did, her family would go to heaven, of the LDS $565 million purchase of a tree farm in Florida, building a $200 million apartment building in Philadelphia, building a multi-billion dollar mall in downtown Salt lake City. The LDS Church is guilty of these and many more endeavors that the real Jesus Christ would have no part of. The LDS Church should remove "Jesus" from its name.

      The LDS Church is overwhelmingly, provably false...as the whole world will see if the British court takes the next step to proceed. Tom Phillips has more integrity in his little finger that all 15 of the top suits in the so-called "Church."

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    3. ^ Anonymous 5:02 PM
      I wish this had a LIKE button!

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  6. I wonder whether the judge or the jury will decide whether each of the Summon's points is a belief or fact. If the judge decides it is a belief, then there may not be any issue for a jury. Perhaips, this is why LDS argued believes so strongly.

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  7. Oh dear, anonymous at 1:58. If the gospel of Jesus Christ was about health, wealth and happiness, low divorce rates, industrious employees, and keeping teenagers off the streets ANY social gospel would do (and there are many of these). They are good things, but as by-products of something bigger rather than aims in themselves. Mormons might be doing better than other Christian churches in respect of social statistics but has it occurred to you that Mormonism is another gospel? A false gospel? Preaching a false Jesus? Many would applaud you for seeking a faith that 'delivers' (on the face of it) what any healthy society would appear to need especially when the Christian churches have failed in very many respects but the Mormon gospel fails spectacularly to lead you to Christ. It will lead you to everything else that a social scientist might recommend but if it leads you away from a deeper 'knowing' of the God who made you and the Jesus who saved you and who deserves to be given His place as your Lord, you have forfeited knowing Him who IS truth. God required Abraham to show willingness to sacrifice Isaac. To some extent we are also called by God to sacrifice anything that we value, however good it appears, if it is more important than God himself. God tested Abraham's heart and after that gruelling trial he still had Isaac. He tests ours too. I fear you will end up losing all you value and ultimately, God too, unless you seek Him and truth first. If you seek Him first all these good but secondary things will be added. Mormonism presents itself as the truth .... done deal. No more questions to be asked once you're in. Big trick. You and your questions are silenced. No 'freedom in Christ' there! What's left is achieved within the structure of a hierarchical ambition towards a 'form of righteousness' (one's own righteousness) that 'denies the power thereof'. The journey to Mormon godhood. Blasphemous.

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  8. Counterfeits are only counterfeits because they are very LIKE the real thing. You won't find a 'counterfeit' $8 dollar bill.

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  9. Anonymous 1:58 is the only writing here that makes sense.

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  10. How many other religions REQUIRE 10% of your income in order to obtain the highest kingdom of heaven?

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  11. Only and idiot would think they could buy their way into Heaven! No one is making that type of promises!

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  12. As a Mormon myself, I absolutely do...not...care... how this case turns out. I've had too many experiences to suddenly doubt what I've known for a long, long time.Now, I know that some folks are thinking "brainwashed", and other such baloney about me (and it's certainly your right to think that), but don't expect me or most other LDS to have a sudden "awareness" (or whatever you choose to call it), causing you to cross the line from believer to non-believer. Want to hear a worst-case scenario? Here it is: Thomas Monson, arrested, hand-cuffed, and led off to prison. (One fellow on YouTube told me that was his dream ending to the case.) Want to know something else? That would not affect my opinion of the church in the least, because my testimony is not based on any particular man--general authority or otherwise. My testimony is based on what I've come to know through study and prayer. The rest of you are certainly free to choose the path you travel down, and I respect that right. But you'll pardon me if I choose not to take the rout of bailing from the church just because some disaffected ex-member (and mentally, that's what he is) with an ax to grind got ants in his pants and decided to sue the president of the church. He's not the first to try it, and probably won't be the last.

    I'm just not joining in the song and dance.

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    1. It is always disappointing to me when I see Mormons online make derogatory comments about the mental state of other human beings simply because they disagree with them.

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    2. JediMormon,

      Two thoughts. From your comment, you either do not understand (or choose to ignore) the purpose of this case. Tom Phillips is not suing Thomas Monson. He is reporting what he thinks is a crime. The Magistrate has heard the arguments and is now taking the time to decide if a crime really may have been committed. For your own credibility, stop referring to this case as a lawsuit.

      Second, what you are describing in your comment is called cognitive dissonance. Again, this relates to the purpose of the case. If Thomas Monson and, by proxy, the Church are found guilty, it will mean that he has committed fraud. It will mean he has lied to the members of the Church by not sharing the whole story. Specifically, he will have lied about the validity of the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, creationism, Adam and Eve, etc. Basically, he will have lied about the foundations upon which you have built your belief system. To simply ignore that information is indeed your right. Just be aware that it has a name...cognitive dissonance.

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    3. I know that I was a exceptionally faithful member of the Church for over 3 decades. For all that money and service, I didn't get to attend 3 of my children's weddings. Before I joined the Church, there was no mention of my non LDS family members not being able to attend weddings, no mention of the real history of the Church, and I'm not really sure what malls and apartment buildings, vast land tracks, theme parks has to do with "the gospel". For those who grew up in the Church, it's my experience that they so identify with being "members of the Church" they lack any cognitive dissonance related to anything the Church or it's leaders do. Then when someone has legitimate concerns, they discredit and demean their character and ALWAYS find the leaders of the Church completely blameless. The reason members can do that is because they're taught not to criticize their "leaders". Even when there's clear historical evidence, a member will say something like "well, no one knows for sure." or "you weren't there" or "you're just a disgruntled ex-Mormon" rather than addressing the concerns and even from a position of not knowing. They'll even say, "Smarter men than you have testimonies of the truthfulness of the Church." If they were buying a car or making an investment, they'd want proof and evidence of value. For the Church, that wants your life, and mind and resources, it's ok not to have any proof of any kind. In fact, if you ask for even a reasonable proof, they castigate you for asking.

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    4. John, you said "Specifically, he will have lied about the validity of the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, creationism, Adam and Eve, etc. Basically, he will have lied about the foundations upon which you have built your belief system. To simply ignore that information is indeed your right. Just be aware that it has a name...cognitive dissonance."
      I did not join the LDS church based on what anyone said about these things. Like JediMormon, I read the Book of Mormon, and prayed about it (well, actually, I prayed about it, and then found it), and it's based entirely on what the Book of Mormon says, especially when compared to what the Bible says (to me), and the spiritual teachings of the LDS church, especially when those are compared to the Protestant/evangelical churches teachings when compared to the Bible.
      As JediMormon said, you can state that all TBM's are brainwashed, but to me, I see way more classic brainwashing done in evangelical/pentecostal/charismatic Christian churches.
      My question is, if this prosecution had not been dismissed as the nuisance that it was, and had been taken seriously by the British courts, it would, as someone else said here, open the doors for disgruntled ex members of ALL churches and religions to do the same thing. I could bring fraud charges against the United Methodist church for the same thing. Doesn't matter that my parents are still faithful members of the UMC.
      Personally, I think a lot of it is sour grapes. Most Christian churches and denominations are screaming for more money. The church I was raised in had to merge with another congregation, and sell the building (which was torn down to build a strip mall), because they didn't have enough money to pay a pastor (and organist and choir director, and secretary, and God only knows who else), AND keep up the building. Seems to me (I could be wrong, but...) that I read somewhere that, even if every member of the LDS church stopped tithing for a year, the church would still have enough money to operate as it does. I find nothing wrong with the church taking the money I donate to them, and making sure that it is not squandered, or that it works hard. One of these days, I might need help, and I know that the church will help me, and that they don't have to worry about having the money to help me.
      For one thing, every building the church builds is totally paid for before the first shovel of earth is turned. And the quality of the construction is such that, when one of our chapels here had to be sold to a local hospital, the hospital was going to tear it down, but when they saw the excellent quality of the building, they didn't tear it down, but merely redid the inside to suit their needs.
      I would think that anyone who is in any way involved with a faith group, or religion, would be fighting tooth and nail WITH the LDS church, as they should recognize that if it can be done to the LDS church, it can be done to ALL churches and religions. And it will be done, believe me!

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  13. Nothing changes if you leave the church and spend time castigating it. Change will only occur if people stay in and continue to raise your concerns. Legitimate concerns, women insisting on having the preisthood when the majority do not want an additional duty, or assignment is not a ligitimate concern or change.

    People in this church do tend to go along and tend to allow what others think of them drive their actions. If you've prayed and the Lord reveals to you that a particular calling is not right for you, DON'T accept it! You don't have to do what you do not want to do, and you should grow a backbone and not let what others may think and say, bother you!

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  14. Yes, I tend to think for significant change to occur (that is, for the Mormon Church to become a genuine 'broad church' as arguably are the Anglicans and Catholics) members who value objective truth and reason should ideally stay and speak up. I'm not suggesting its easy.The leadership won't excommunicate a hundred thousand, I don't think. Failing that, the other alternative to those who still wish to retain the best of Mormonism/link to their heritage etc. may be the formation of a Progressive Mormonism with some precedent to be found in a movement like Progressive Judaism, for example.

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  15. I think Mormons need an alternative, at least those who wish to retain links to the tradition. Jews have done it with Progressive Judaism now well-established.I don't mean to overestimate the parallels between the two cultures, but perhaps the time is right for interested Mormons to think about this.

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