Sunday, June 30, 2013

Evidentiary, My Dear Monson


The character Sherlock Holmes once stated, 'There is nothing like first-hand evidence.'  Indeed, first hand evidence clears up much.

For decades, critics raised increasing doubts about the Book of Mormon. In ancient America, there's no Hebraic DNA, no piles of advanced steel weaponry, no vast Christian utopian societies. It's a real choker in the LDS church's craw.

 If the LDS church could point to evidence that would quiet critics, why wouldn't they? 
Would they hide evidence because it's more important to test faith? The usual excuses given: Nephi and Alma were too long ago, genes dilute, swords rust, buildings erode, etc.  It was just too long ago, so you can discount evidence that has disappeared in time...    

However, if the church all to itself did come across evidence that Joseph Smith claimed he made it up or that there were never Nephites, would you expect them to release an apology? Or would they hide that counter evidence in their vault? They'd probably ignore it; pretend the problem doesn't exist; hope it just goes away on its own. 

Critics are raising doubts about the trustworthiness of the apostles. Documents show suspicious activities--property taxes bills sent to church offices, property transferred from church to apostles, men who had low pay become wealthy as apostles. The Mission President's Handbook outlines the many perks worth up to a hundred thousand dollars.  These would only increase at the promoted office of apostle.  Faithful LDS members have complained at these criticisms, saying the evidence is weak. Perhaps, but they're not as weak as the evidence the faithful use to justify belief in the Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham.

The church can silence critics of apostle finances and lavish business interests by showing the first hand evidence of their financials. Politicians release their taxes and business activities for public scrutiny. Even Mitt Romney finally did after a lot of hassle. The acclaimed highly integerous apostles could dispel the suspicions in a heartbeat.   Should they? Will they? 

Honest emissaries of Christ who are believed closest to him as special witnesses have nothing to fear if their acts are pure and noble. However, if the evidence isn't in their favor, one can understand they will feel they shouldn't release it. After all, members covenant to never speak evil against the Lord's anointed. The apostles are banking on it. Perhaps literally. 

39 comments:

  1. I feel so sad for any trusting investigator thinking that this blog is unbiased. It is obvious that David has a vendetta against the church. Be careful who you read.

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    1. I think that all he is trying to say are the words spoken bringing mankind closer to God, or further from his grace. Criticizing does not bring him closer. No matter what faith a person is Christen, Jewish, or Muslim. If your words are not bringing men close then they are bringing men away from God. That is what the "Anonymous" post was saying.

      A person who is investigating any religion is seeking for something that they currently don't have. Most of the time it is for the reason to be closer to God. This site paints a faith that bring many peace and to others none, a harsh view that plague many others. I have not read anything about crusades or the spanish inquisition. Or anything about the iron cross and the Nazi??? There is much to criticize, but what are you doing to lift up and praise God in the form that the person believes in?

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  2. I understand if you think he is biased, but what does he say that is untrue? Are missionaries supposed to be unbiased? They don't even touch on the stuff in the temple until they are baptized.

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  3. You are very right - brother Tweed is indeed biased - biased towards truth instead of towards the half-truths and lies that the church teach. Not one word of what he says is untrue, so you create a straw man arguement attacking him for being biased. Well, look in your Gospel Doctrine manuals and see if there is any mention or any of Joseph Smiths 33 polygamous wives, or even any of Brigham Youngs, and then tell me who is telling the truth and who is not.

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  4. Just because you have a "vendetta" doesn't mean you're the one in the wrong. People with "vendetta" issues file and win lawsuits all the time based on being IN THE RIGHT vs. wrong! ;)

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  5. What evidence that proves that Jesus died and rose again? Where is the tablets that contain the Ten Commandments? Where is Noah's Ark? Where is the Arc of the Covenant? While there are many buildings and cities that exist now, that existed during biblical times, who is to say that these places didn't exist first and then the Bible stories written? If you're going to down the LDS faith, then down all faiths. You'd have a lot more veracity if you were to attack all religions, and not the religion that you apparently never felt you were welcome part of.

    I'd hate to open up my income and spending habits to the public and I make very little money. I know that I don't agree with the way that people spend money. I look at people with two homes, and I think to myself that if you make that kind of money you should be donating it to the poor, not buying a second home. I'm talking about anyone following Christ teachings. Why should ANYONE be held to a higher standard? If we all are working on following in the Lords steps then we should ALL live close to poverty. Are you prepared to give up everything you own and follow Christ? Are you willing to live the standards that you require of the prophets?

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  6. And they have 3 homes and get paid free money for keeping the BIGGEST secret ever kept on this planet. The profits/prophets, I PERSONALLY GUARANTEE you are NOT God fearing men. They KNOW the hoax but you will NEVER get them to admit to ANYONE but themselves in their own private circles of trusted, hypocritical men.

    Thou art GOD. That is what the LDS corporation knows. We're ALL GOD and already in Heaven. ~BIGGEST secret ever kept on our planet.

    Numaste' and NUT UP. (Thanks for the smile, Barbara)
    ~Benjamin Davies

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  7. Secret? Really? You all think that LDS people haven't heard all of this CRAP before? I'd say if I were to use David T's school of thought I'd believe that every religion is a hoax.

    Nut up? Why know a name? That doesn't mean you're going to know any more or less about a person.

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  8. Each religion's claims must be considered individually and nothing demands that a critic of one religion must specialize in another religion, so long as he is not promoting another religion. As for the General Authorities, they are supposed to be Leaders and Moral and Spiritual Guides. If they can't stand up to more stringent scrutiny, why does anyone look to them for anything?

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  9. Anonymous, I've been faithful LDS for 35 years, serving as Bishop, on the High Council, etc., and chose our faith over other religions, but I think we should be fair to them. They aren't claiming that Christ came to the Americas, that Native Americans are descended from the Middle East, etc.

    They do claim that the walls of Jericho came tumbling down and many other things, but I shot a public television documentary for Stanford University and stood on Jericho's collapsed walls, and the story seems to have happened as described in the Book of Joshua. No one has found evidence for the Book of Mormon, and we're the only religion that makes the claim. Even the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has admitted problems with historicity and racisim in the Book of Mormon and made belief in it optional, but has reaffirmed their faith in the Bible.

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    1. See, therein is the problem with the way typical people think: You saw Jericho's collapsed walls, but what is the evidence that they were felled by Israeli trumpeters? If I told you that my car was wrecked by a dragon, and they show you the wrecked car, how much evidence is that for the existence of dragons?

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    2. AnonymousJuly 1, 2013 at 3:30 PM

      "See, therein is the problem with the way typical people think: You saw Jericho's collapsed walls, but what is the evidence that they were felled by Israeli trumpeters? If I told you that my car was wrecked by a dragon, and they show you the wrecked car, how much evidence is that for the existence of dragons?"

      ECELLLENT POINT! You gave a great example of what I was trying to point out.

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    3. It's perfectly true that the ruins of Jericho's walls do not prove the events of Joshua. Lots of things make city walls collapse besides a parade with a fancy box and trumpets. Earthquakes for instance, or war.

      But: At least a traditional Christian has that much. He has a Bible that, if nothing else, places events in a real, verifiable historical context most of the time. Jericho was a real city, and at one point in its history its walls really did collapse. Ur "of the Chaldees", from which Abraham was said to hail, was a real city too. Judah really was ruled by a "House of David". Sennacherib really did invade Israel and Judah, and turned back before reducing Jerusalem. You could almost draw an accurate map of Iron Age Canaan from the descriptions in the Bible.

      The New Testament is, if anything, even more accurate, despite the confusion over the census in Luke 2. Pontius Pilate really was procurator of Judaea. External sources document the preaching of John the Baptist. Caiaphas really was the high priest at the Temple. The Romans really did execute by crucifixion.

      There are dozens and dozens of other identifications you could make between real history and both the Old and New Testaments. Events may not have happened exactly as the Biblical writers said or for the reasons they ascribe, but AT LEAST they placed those events in a landscape and a political situation we can largely recognize. The historical backdrop, even if sometimes garbled, is real.

      Not so the Book of Mormon. Its history, its landscape, its politics, are all total fantasies, products not of local myth, legend, and folk memory reduced to writing at some stage but the fertile imagination of Joseph Smith. That, I think, is the salient point.

      -- Chris C.

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  10. David, why don't you open up your financials? Put your money where your blog is...

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  11. @Chris M. fair to other religions, why? What they do claim is even more crazy than what the LDS faith claims. I wanted to know why we are here on this earth. They can't answer that. I wanted to know why people suffer here, they can't answer that. I wanted to know why we have to die, they can't answer that. I wanted to know what our purpose is here, they can't answer that. I wanted to know why some people can go through life sinning, breaking all commandments and according to their religion if that person accepts Christ as their Savior and believes he lives and died for them, if they get the same piece of Heaven, which they do, and I wanted to know why, they can't answer that. I wanted to know what we do in Heaven, they don't know. I wanted to know how Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost could be all the same, they don't know other then to compare them to an egg or a apple.

    Everything that the LDS says makes sense, even if it comes from imperfect people. I know that ultimately history will prove out that LDS faith has 99% of the puzzle correct. I also know that if I look at everything under a microscope I'm going to find a lot of things that are not going to add up. I know this has been said before, but I'll say it again I rely on the Holy Spirit. And unless you have truly experienced having received a true testimony, and clung onto that testimony you'll never believe in anything unless you can touch it for yourself.

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  12. Just because they have the answers that you want to hear doesn't mean they have ownership of the truth. The answers to the tough questions undermine their ability to maintain claim to continued revelation, out that it was built in divine revelation in the first place.

    I'll admit that "if" Christ were to organize a church it would likely look like the LDS one... with fewer, much fewer foundational flaws. Modern revelation is the only thing that gave them the liberty to explain your questions, but it is a fallacy to say because you have a satisfactory explanation that equals truth.

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  13. The LDS faith has answers, not necessarily ones that I want to hear, but ones that make sense. I wasn't frantically searching for answers, I was trying to do what the ministers and other fellow Christians suggested I do, and that is "wait until I die, or the Lord returns, and all will be revealed." I wasn't looking to change my religion either. I happened to be working with a man that is Mormon and I would make statements about the Mormon religion, negative ones. I, in fact, started investigating the church so I could point out what an idiot he was for believing what Mormon's believe.

    I've asked questions here before that no one has addressed. I've asked how Joseph Smith could have thought all of this up, if he was as uneducated as everyone claims. And on the other hand, if he was that brilliant why wouldn't he have thought of the questions that might have arisen? I've asked why would he have bothered to write the Book of Mormon, and not thought of adding that things that are in the Doctrine and Covenants rather than continue to add revelations? So many questions that no one can come up with any answers, let alone halfway reasonable answers.

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    1. I've asked questions here before that no one has addressed. I've asked how Joseph Smith could have thought all of this up, if he was as uneducated as everyone claims.

      The BoM isn't all that stunning an invention. There's a kind of dreary repetitiveness to all the battles and other events. The language of the BoM testifies to JS's lack of education more than anything else: it's a bad pastiche of the KJV with numerous grammatical errors. (These have since been corrected by Mormon leadership, an act totally incompatible with belief in it as a divinely dictated translation. That Mormon leadership felt free to do this suggests they take a different view of matters than they expect rank-and-file Mormons to hew to.)

      Those sources include fiction available to JS at the time, and the KJV itself, which is sometimes directly quoted.

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    2. The answers to all your questions are explained in detail (with graphics) here:
      http://mormonleaks.com/

      Read through all the presentations to date, then you may be in a position to ask some sensible questions.

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    3. Proverbs 3:5-7 "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil."

      James 1:5-8 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."

      Luke 11:9-13 "And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

      Man may not always answer our questions, but God always does. Perhaps not always as soon as we'd like, according to our own time table, sometimes we must wait for our answer! But I assure you that if you are patient, your answer WILL come.

      God bless!

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  14. David T., haven't you heard that donations are not refundable? You've claimed them on your taxes, so unless you plan to change your claim, the money stays donated.

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    1. It seems to me that if the LDS church can pay Mission Presidents for their housing, cars, insurance, tuition, gardeners, maids, and more to the tune of $100k per year, and since the LDS church requires that the MPs do not report such income/benefits/compensation and perks to the tax authorities, I should also get the tax break and the benefits like they do. But alas, the moron church is above the law. I'm not.

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  15. Dr. apparently you haven't read anything about the myriad of ministers who have made front page news for their misconduct? And when you talk about cover-ups, if they are that good at covering up no one will know anything, correct? Excellent cover-ups will never be discovered by the general public. For example, look at the Bible, how many things have been eliminated and/or changed in the Bible.

    By the way, still no one can give me a reasonable answer as to why Joseph Smith went to such great lengths to fool the public. In fact to the extent that he gave his life doing it.

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    1. His motives: fame and getting laid. He succeeded on those. He probably wanted to get rich (money digger) but he failed in that (Kirtland bank scam)

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  16. David T., it isn't the LDS church that doesn't require it is reported, it is the IRS. And I suspect there was a time that the MP's were paying some of those things out of their own income. And when they paid for it, they attempted to claim it on their income tax. The church probably found out that it was becoming a problem. They either support the MP's 100 percent, or not at all. And if they didn't support them at all, they probably found there weren't that many MP's that could afford to take that calling. As with most things involving the church there is most likely several views and issues.

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  17. pareidoliette, you're wrong with the assumption that others do no do their research. I've researched, read and heard a ton of what and why this church is wrong and much of what is wrong with the founders. On the one hand people against the church talk about how uneducated Joseph Smith was, how he made up the BofM and the Pearl of Great Price. While at the same time saying he was apparently brilliant to come up with a much more reasonable explanation of why we are hear, and how much more fair and loving Heavenly Father we have to give three degrees of Heaven/Glory. I find it very hard to believe that if Joseph Smith wanted to make money being a charlatan he could have made more money, and have had less people wanting to kill him, but taking up some other means of cheating people out of their money. Plus, why didn't he just include the Pearl of Great Price with the BofM? Why have the BofM at all? After all there isn't anything in it that is earth shattering or that conflict greatly with the Bible. There are a lot more, "why's,' involved than the ones you and David T. are asking.

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  18. David T., Yes, I've read how supposedly Joseph Smith had another source for writing the Book of Mormon. I've also have read from other experts that this wasn't true. You haven't explained why he would bother doing that? Why have the BofM, when it doesn't differ greatly from the Bible? To make money? To have sex with other women? All of that could have been accomplished without making up the BofM, or further revelations. All of that could be accomplished without dying.

    Regarding whether or not the church should be buying into or building malls etc. Personally, I don't believe the church should use the money that way. I'd be interested as to what their explanation is as to why they are doing this. At the same time I know that some day this world will be the kingdom of God. So, does that mean all things in this world will belong to that kingdom? Will we no longer purchase items, or will all that we need be provided by and owned by God? Will there be a formal church? These are questions that will not likely be answered yet. Perhaps the church is attempting to build that kingdom now.

    Whatever their reason, it isn't my job to sensor what is being done with the money that is tithed. Indeed, if it were to bother me that much I wouldn't tithe, that is a choice everyone has.

    Also, in regards to the BofM, the D&C and the Pearl of Great Price. It all paints a larger picture, a more complete picture. Just because there hasn't been proof coming forward to prove the BofM isn't true, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. (Which is always being debated among experts.) It isn't as if we are digging dirt every day for proof here in the Americas. On the other hand scientist are discovering more planets as their tools to see them improve.

    What it boils down to is you can either believe in other religions that do not make sense. Or, you can not believe in any God, or you can believe the most complete picture, and be LDS.

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    1. I wrote above I think he did it for fame primarily and for sex secondarily. The evidence against Joseph Smith is quite extensive and very rational. You can choose to ignore it and go with the supernatural and irrational explanation. His motive isn't as important as the piles of evidence now accumulated. Likewise, you can claim the modern 15 are the most Christ like special witnesses, but that too is irrational and now evidenced against.

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    2. Is it evidence? Or only a twisted way of perceiving evidence that is not well defined by any reliable source? Remember Lucifer is tricksy, and has a way of tweaking a truth to lead us astray. Rely on God above any man, even your own understanding! Because men will lead us astray, the way we think we perceive things will lead us astray, but when we pray to God for wisdom... He will show us the undeniable truth of all things by the power of the Holy Spirit. Which power is not always best described as a burning in the bosoms. Sometimes its as living waters, sometimes peace, love, joy, hope, but then other times there cannot be any description for it beyond pure power.

      Can there be any solid definition that explains the power of of the Holy Ghost? No, but a man will know the difference between his own emotions and God's power when he feels it. So I beg you to let God's power to be your only true source of any evidence.

      Love ya bro! Only trying to be helpful, not offend anybody. ^_^

      Peace out.

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    3. I think he did it for money. His own mother said that he was great at making up stories. Other people, like Solomon Spalding, wrote books to make money, why not Joseph Smith? The fact that he attempted to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon speaks volumes as to his motive in writing it.

      As to the question of his being an 'ignorant farm boy', and how he could be 'brilliant' at the same time, while it is true that he did not have much formal education, he was taught at home by his school teacher father. Education was important to the Smith family, as evidenced by Hyrum becoming a teacher also. Joseph Smith's 'ignorance' has been played as a reason that he could not have written the Book of Mormon, but he was only ignorant in formal education, not imagination.

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    4. I think he did it for money first and fame second. His attempt to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon speaks volumes as to his motive in writing it.

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  19. Apparently you are just now waking up, because that information has been out there for a very long time. The mainstream Christian bookstores have had TONS of books on this very subject for a long time.

    I believe those that leave the church and feel the need to advertise why the church is wrong and why Joseph Smith is wrong do so because their are either sinning in a major way, or they are butt hurt about something. Which is the case for you David T.? Are you perhaps gay?

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    1. "Are you perhaps gay?"

      Why don't you find David, bend over and we'll find it.

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    2. Sounds like you're speaking from experience.

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  20. From as far as I understand, there is as much evidence that the book of Mormon is a true record of God's people as there's evidence that there's a God to begin with. But as Christians, does modern science rob us of the Holy Spirit? Nay.

    Acts 1:8 "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

    That said, having been baptized by the Holy Ghost myself, I can say beyond a shout of a doubt that the best evidence a man will ever find for himself is the power of the Holy Ghost made manifest within his life. Now obviously there's critics to this. Atheists say it's just our own emotions, or rationalize it away with various different psychological terms. HOWEVR, fact remains that once a man actually witnesses the UNDENIABLE power of the Holy Ghost...? You'd have to be stupid to not know when God is talking to you.

    As for the apostles themselves? Well, they sit in Moses' seat as the Pharisees do. Did Jesus ever praise the pharisees? Covenanting to not speak evil against the leadership of the church is madness! Did the Jews not condemn Christ for "speaking evil" of the pharisees as he called them out on their hypocrisy? When he criticized them?

    Read Matthew 23, and learn that seeking to correct priesthood leadership is not a sin, so long as you have a heart close to Christ's.

    So let me ask you this: Will the Mormons, even the apostles, nail Jesus Christ to the cross for speaking harsh words against them?

    Jesus comes with a two edged sword, and is the lion of the tribe of Judah. We may choose to like Jesus as a delicate lamb who doesn't hurt a fly, but fact remains there's a side to Jesus that deals with ugly stuff in ways we don't always want to be dealt with.

    Mr. David Twede, and all others who read this comment, let me assure you of one thing:
    This is a day of grace, goodness, and mercy. But surely as God lives he shall judge the nations, purge and chasten his people, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed upon the mountaintops for all to see! Everything that can be shaken will be shaken, both the heavens and the earth, and only that in which cannot be shaken shall remain.

    I believe all this with my whole heart

    God Bless!

    Kaitlyn

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  21. David T./Stupid, Everyone can access the Holy Spirit, we are all children of Heavenly Father. Those of the LDS faith have a more direct and constant line to the Holy Spirit. That is how people of other faith can access the Holy Spirit.

    You forget that the time that the Word of Wisdom was issued people were eating a lot of red meat, eating less would have been unusual. Also, the "experts," have been all over the place with coffee, tea, wine etc. They are constantly changing their, "expert," opinion. Personally, I think a lot of it is tied to caffeine. Joseph Smith at the time didn't know that sodas and energy drinks would be so prolific. Also, I'm a convert, as a former coffee drinker it has been so hard for me to give up a hot drink that I drink Pero. Science is not and never will be 100 percent accurate, it is fluid with more knowledge it changes.

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    1. "Those of the LDS faith have a more direct and constant line to the Holy Spirit."

      Your arrogance is showing - only Mormons have a higher measure of spiritual connection with god. Right. So why does the holy spirit confirm to Hindus that polytheism is truth, to Muslims that monotheism is truth and to Mormons that Trinitarianism is truth? Very confusing this holy spirit.

      Science may not bat 100% but Mormonism cures no one, nor produces longer life or happier people than science already does.

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  22. (Extended descriptions to help you understand my beliefs, and I swear I'm not doing this to argue!)

    As far as Lucifer goes... That one is tricksy all in and of itself. I see where you're coming from! But consider this: Matter cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change form. So seeing that our spirits are matter, the very essence of our being cannot be created or destroyed. We can only change form... from an intelligence to a spirit to now having a body to house that spirit. As God has always existed, so have we. So if Lucifer is the father of all lies, and has always existed in some form or another since matter cannot be created or destroyed, then it's not a ludicrous claim that he started all evil here upon this earth (or wherever else for that matter). Heavenly Father IS the Father of our Spirits. But the Book of Abraham does mention us being intelligences first if you look closer at it (Just so you know where I came up with the idea).

    As far as the Holy Spirit goes? I do admit that being baptized by the fire of the Holy Ghost is easy to deny. When I first felt it as an investigator, I felt more like my whole soul was on fire and that this fire reached up to the heavens. It was very uncomfortable, and far more dramatic than just a little burning in the bosoms. And yet, it was not enough to make me believe in anything. It was only enough to confuse the living hell out of me. What on Earth do I mean by the undeniable power then? Well... There's a vast difference between fire and water. Water gives life, but fire burns things up. Thus fire is a method to burn away doubt, and water is a method of giving faith. That's the best way I can describe it, aside from bringing up the fact that when God actually DOES speak to you... His words have so much power that it pierces your heart and shakes the frame of your whole body, taking away also much of its strength. The prophet of the Mormon church has never pierced my heart this way. Thus I can only see him as a pastor teaching what he believes is good, and I must test all his words most carefully to look for the well of living waters. But I have met a man in my life whose words had pierced my heart this way, and I did recognize it as God. How could I not recognize it? God spoke to me first this way, then it was one year later that I met a man who spoke the same way. (Not to boast, but I know what I speak of.)

    Do I think you're stupid? No, not at all. I'm well aware not all persons are like me.

    God speaks ONLY when he wants to speak, but he speaks to all those who believe. Not only prophets and apostles can hear God speak!! "Whosoever has ears, let him hear what the spirit says unto the church." And I assure you, there is a vast difference between feeling the power of the Holy Ghost witness of God's direct words that pierce your heart unto having living waters spring forth out of your soul.... And feeling a confusing fire inside your soul that burns up doubt, and evil works.

    Now to all those who do not know the undeniable witness? It is well with them. It is better to have no knowledge and not believe than to have pure knowledge and deny the truth. For those who do not know there can be forgiveness, but if I denied my witness I could never be forgiven. Nevertheless, I do not have perfect knowledge of all things. Just that God is, Jesus Christ is who he says he is, and I was commanded by him to be a worker in the harvest. That's all I can say I know for sure by any undeniable witness of the power of the Holy Ghost, but I do look for more such witnesses. Why? Because I love the presence of God, cleave unto the words that proceed out of his mouth, love God, and dare not to think of what life would be like without someone so great, good, and marvelous beyond description!

    My two cents.

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  23. pareidoliette, if I'm reading your response correctly you're saying that Joseph Smith added to the BofM as he went along. That he just, "happened," to make sense of it all as he went along as well. Plus, you're saying the three degrees of glory etc. was already there, Joseph just merely pointed it out.

    You can believe that is that is what you NEED to do, but my opinion is that just doesn't work. It doesn't add up.

    David T. prior to my converting I didn't experience the Holy Spirit confirming the gospel. I didn't experience the surety of a various testimony. Now, I have experienced the Holy Spirit speaking to me. I've experienced revelation etc. Prior to converting I believed that LDS people were arrogant. Now, I understand that this comes from having the Holy Spirit, having that surety that doesn't exist with others. Being sure does not mean your arrogant, it means you're sure.

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