Wednesday, January 16, 2013

Alma the Aviator Saves Hostages, Leaping over Tall Estates on a Single Modest-Stipend

Many New Order Mormons (NOMs) and some traditional members feel Apostle Dieter Uchtdorf is the most honest, humble and interesting Apostle in the LDS church.  This may very well be true, especially given the others in the quorum.   On 13 January, 2013, Elder Dieter gave a church education devotional 

 At around 33 minutes into the broadcast, Dieter says the following:


"…Remember that in this age of information there are many who create doubt about anything and everything at anytime and everyplace. You will find even those who still claim that they have evidence that the earth is flat. That the moon is a hologram. It looks like it a little bit. And that certain movie stars are really aliens from another planet. And it is always good to keep in mind just because something is printed on paper, appears on the internet, is frequently repeated or has a powerful group of followers doesn't make it true."
  True, how true.  This may include the opening paragraph of Dieter’s biography at LDS.ORG.

(click on image to expand)

From this bio, (apparently penned by Jeffrey Holland) we learn that Dieter flew a small group of emergency personnel to follow the hostages in a hijacked 737.  His company president ordered Dieter “to negotiate for the release of the plane, the pilots and the hostages.” He was told after having accomplished this, he should fly the recovered aircraft back to Frankfurt headquarters, which apparently happened without bloodshed.  Reading the bio, it would seem Uchtdorf was at the center of negotiating, rescuing, apprehending and recovering the hijacked hostages and plane.  That’s major hero action.

Uchtdorf gave the church permission to relate a story that apparently isn’t corroborated in other accounts of the hostage event.  See the references & sources of this Wikipedia article to get the facts.


A lot of this has been discussed in forums online (here & here) already this week.  Still some ask, is Dieter F. Uchtdorf pulling a Paul H. Dunn?  Is he as trustworthy as some believed?

What I have uncovered about him may cause more concern.  Not only about the junior Apostle, but about some of what the LDS church is doing related to him in real estate dealings.  This is preliminary, but so far, what I’ve found is alarming.

Apparently, the LDS church is buying lots of land in Utah resort and vacation towns.  Some of these are in highly prestigious gated residential communities.  One is the Red Ledges development.  Homes (estates & mansions) here start at half-million and move up quickly into the several million.  LDS inc seemingly owns a large (undeveloped) plot (lot 184).¹ 

The LDS owned  lot is small enough not to serve for a chapel/church lot, but large enough to place a nice sized estate upon.  Why does LDS inc purchase residential lots in a gated elite community? 

(click on image to expand)



The reason they purchase home lots could be, perhaps, tied to Dieter F Uchtdorf.  He received the very first (Lot 1 Parcel 00-0020-9118 (the link to it changes, so search by parcel)) finished town home late last summer.

 
Dieter's Summer estate in Red Ledges.

He bought it for $782,000, and it is a tenth the size (at 0.063 acres) of the lot owned by LDS inc in the same development. 

(click on image to expand)

MLS report on Dieter's Red Ledges sale



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Wasatch County Tax Report on said property


Uchtdorf’s home is not his principal residence. That’s in the upper-crust North Salt Lake area at 399 Aerie Circle.  This primary residence is worth $778,000, and the taxes for it are mailed to the Church’s offices at 47 East South Temple St in SLC.

(click on image to expand)
Davis County Tax Report on Dieter's primary residence


What we see is, Hero Dieter owns two homes worth three-quarters of a million each.  Hero Dieter, who quit his aviator position at Lufthansa in 1996 hasn’t worked a job in 16 years, but bought two homes with combine worth today of $1.5M.  The latest, last year, in the development where the LDS church already bought homestead plots bigger than Dieters.

This is just preliminary, and already I have found other interesting bits which I will address in future blogs.  But I’d like to point out that for supposedly a modest stipend, the junior apostle is doing very well.  When Uchtdorf  tells his religious student audience to beware of critics who are just like flat-earthers and alien watchers (because the internet isn’t very true), he’s like Alma telling Korihor that his denial of Christ is crazy talk.  Alma, we’re told, worked for his living without even a modest stipend to obtain fancy estates in high-society resort developments.  Readers contrasting Alma the honest with Korihor the agitator feel they can trust Alma. 

Dieter asks in the same 13 Jan CES talk:
"How can we know that this truth is different from any other? How can we trust this truth? The invitation to trust the lord does not relieve us from responsibility to know for ourselves."
 He assures his listeners that truth is found in the whispering of the spirit which only comes from living the gospel.   He encourages them to accept an assumption about how we source truth (through feelings). And goes on to end with this:


"I add my witness as an apostle of the Lord that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God. I know this with all my heart and mind. I know this by the witness and power of the Holy Ghost."
Can he provide any more evidence of these claims than flat-earthers or moon-hologramers do of theirs?  Can we trust the hero, mansions-owning pilot?  He’s no humble-living Alma. He’s Dunn.




1 - Previously I had shown/listed two additional lots(lot 77lot 99) under Church Properties LLC, but it has been commented elsewhere that the two properties listed may not be owned by the LDS church, instead they may be a private company held by an individual with the last name Church.  If so, my confusion is noted here as an innocent and perhaps sloppy mistake.  I'm checking this out.  In the mean time, note that a search on Wasatch County Appraiser's site for owner "LDS:" or "Bishop" or "Property Reserve" (all associated with the LDS corporations) yields a combine more than 100+ properties in that county alone. Many of these are in private residential areas (some are church buildings) and in wilderness/recreational areas.  The Church's holdings are significant, and I did assume the LLC was somehow associated with the Mormons. Red Ledges  Lot 184 is held by the church, and may have been acquired by them from a member donation--another piece I am still tracking down.



63 comments:

  1. The 5.5 billion dollar mall may not be paid for by tithing monies, but I can guarantee these men's "modest stipends" and huge property taxes are.

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  2. this is the same story of the GA in the 70's who went on about how 90% of his battalion was killed but he was spared because of his garments and priesthood blessings. He wrote books about it etc.

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    1. That liar was Paul Dunn, which is referenced in the blog. There was another in the '50s that flat out lied about his war record.

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  3. I missing the connection. Are you saying if you're Mormon you can't have money? Or, are you implying that the money comes from tithe? Do you know for a fact the money he bought his homes with came from tithe? I suspect that he makes a lot of money off the books he has written.

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    1. After reading the article, I don't think there's a firm connection. But there are interesting coincidences. LDS church owning expensive estate lands. LDS church pays Dieter's taxes on primary residence. Dieter hasn't worked in almost two decades and suddenly he is getting an estate where the LDS church invests.

      If Dieter had so much money, why are his property tax bills being sent to the COB at temple square?

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    2. look at the tax statement recipient genius. Or rather, this will probably be better. Come back to this once you actually own a property so you can understand the items in these screen shots, see for yourself and actually get what it means.

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  4. Of course, just like Jesus did. Like Jesus, like Dieter.

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  5. The church buys the nicest homes in foreign countries for mission presidents so it would make sense that they provide the even higher ups with even nicer homes.

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  6. Obviously there is a connection. The more money you have the more righteous you are and a more spiritual man you are. Who ever heard of a bishop who works at walmart?

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  7. I intensely dislike the myth surrounding apostles that they "gave everything up to serve the Lord." Most LDS members are led to believe these men have truly sacrificed to be in the positions in which they serve.

    I also wonder how these leaders can claim to have the market cornered on who has truth when their very own founder declared that science would one day validate life on the moon.

    Anyway, nice houses, I wonder who cleans the toilets?

    Becky

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  8. I think I'll tweet this one. Look for it from @NewNameNoah

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    1. Not going to post on your personal page?

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  9. Where is Ms. Anonymous on this one?

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    1. Any second now... I feel a forced laugh emerging through a thick shell of denial.

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    2. LOL Matejoh

      *bows deeply* I commend you on taking her on. I simply cannot any more.

      I am surprised this day and age people still get baptized into the LDS Church who are not born into it, especially older peeps like her. Especially with information like this available.

      I simply do not take the view point anymore that the church is deceitful and the poor members are duped but honest people anymore. Any member of the church you talk to has in the back of his or her mind that he or she wants to convert you and isnt letting on.

      They also dont let on that they are hiding deeper doctrines of the church. Its part of the covenants they make in the temple. Its all based on lies and deception. I know, I was once part of the machine. *shudder*

      Dave, what kind of views are you getting per post now? And what are hits for MT per day since the election?

      And, Dave *bows deeply again* kudos to you for your research and presentation of facts.

      Becky

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  10. These are most likely real estate investments to be sold later for a profit. I am not saying it's right, but the church can either give saved tithes to a bank and have the bank make money on investments, or they can invest it themselves and have themselves make money on it. I think that's probably what happened here.

    I used to work for the church in operations support, they own a real estate investment company that is large and has employees that don't even know that they are working for the church.

    Also, President Uchtdorf wasn't just an aviator, he was an executive. He was very wealthy before he became an apostle.

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    1. I wasn't aware of that information, thanks for sharing. He's a likable guy, as far as GA's go, so I was disappointed by the appearance of impropriety. But you bring up good information for a counter argument on his behalf. There is still the transparency issue with Church funds, however, and who has the authority to approve purchases of land not used directly for church use. On one hand, it may be a "safe place" to invest money, "using the talents" so to speak. On the other hand, we can only infer the exchange rate for dollars to cinines (that Alma references) must be about about $1 billion to 1.

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    2. Maybe the church needs to take in less money if their problem is having it sit in a bank. Maybe they could spend it on water or sanitation facilities in the 3rd world and actually do something that is humanitarian and not PR acts of unloaded boxes of things. Maybe they could introduce a progressive tithe system so that those making 20K and can't afford the 2 thousand pay a lower rate than those making 100K who can afford 10K. But if that were to happen the poor people wouldn't have to go begging to the church to pay their bills.

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    3. If the church has too much money sitting around they could help the wards in South Salt City. It is one of the poorest in the city and it only gets money to help the "poor" from Fast Sunday. It sends all its tithe money to headquarters and receives no money from other wards. So you have a bunch of poor people giving money to try to help other people.

      Delete
  11. You anti-Mormons look for any excuse to bad mouth the church. this is so benign.

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    1. Maybe so... but we don't have to look very far.

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    2. The son of a Nazi soldier lives in splendor in Utah. He feeds at the same trough as all the other Mormon supremacists: human gullibility.

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  12. "Hello, I am Dieter...Welcome to Sprockets; Do you want to touch my Monkey?" (SNL skit reference for the older crowd)

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  13. I get so tired of hearing the blatant excuse that the GA's were wealthy before they were called. monsoon was a school teacher, Paul H Dunn was a seminary teacher, yet they end up millionaires. I don't think the money came from teaching school. these men have the red carpet treatment wherever they go. If they are making money writing books, the proceeds should go to the church and not in their wallet, since the books are written on church time and people buy it only because of their position in the church.

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  14. I suspect the acreage of Uchtdorf's lot noted on the image is a typo. I bet it is supposed to be .63 (which would make it in line with the other lots), not .063. If it was .063, the lot would be roughly 40 x 70 feet, which I highly doubt.

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    1. The county docs show 0.06 acres too and list the land as part of a common area. The Villas at Red Ledges (lots 1-6) are community rather than private properties, so the acreage listed is only the home's footprint, probably.

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  15. Is it a church or a land investment corporation? The LDS church is acquiring residential properties in a gated resort development? Huh? Maybe the leaders are setting up Jesus' retirement home...

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  16. Matjoh I''m still here just on the road right now. It is entertaining reading paranoia iin action. No forced laughs by the way they are real. Poor Becky older and wiser. Lol

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    1. I think I agree with Becky. If I understand it, There is nothing wrong with discussing issues. However, I see Matejoh, at least at first, striving to keep things civil, and even apologizing at times. Ms. Anon has been very taunting, mean, and un-civil in her tone. The regular posters here havent gotten nearly as close to that kind of tone.

      Troll, really, is one of attitude and tone as much as it is content. I for one appreciate the intellectual and civil treatment of matters here. But not the negative tone that has entered since Ms Anon arrived on the scene.

      I even hesitate to address this, since it will bring on new onslaughts from her. I request that we dont acknoweledge her anymore because she really doesnt add to the blog at all.

      Delete
    2. A quick example of what I mean by reasoning and experience bias, regarding deeply held beliefs and bias toward misinformation if it supports your beliefs:

      http://searchcenter.intelecomonline.net/playClipDirect.aspx?id=E22DB555B562B463C0F5EE35DE315BCB5CA9621ED0132E1823264876125E799D1789474455514F32C8FEA4B7688954B4

      Here are some descriptions of terms to get familiar with regarding legitimate arguments and fallacious arguments, as well as good practices for reasoning in general.

      http://www.dartmouth.edu/~writing/materials/student/ac_paper/logic.shtml

      Here is a pdf booklet on Ethics, Morality, and Logic. Very informative stuff.

      https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3xjmUHneucVSy1sMEMyMjRDZkU/edit

      I'm not trying to convince you that you're wrong, just trying to help you present yourself (and your ideas) in a way that actually benefits you and informs others.

      Delete
  17. Of course the mall was paid for with Tithe money. Where else did it come from? Are there magical trees that grow money in temple square? If the money came from church owned companies these kind of monies come from tithing used to buy more companies. This is the kind of equivocation and obfuscation that is part of the Mormon rhetorical/indoctrination program.

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    1. That's what happens over 2600 years. The fruit of the tree turns from brilliant white, to a crisp green. It also flattens into a rectangle shape. For obviously money is choice above all other fruits to behold.

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  18. It's all tithing money people! How did the church get the money to start those companies in the first place? You think an angel, I mean Jesus, I mean Jesus and the Father came down and handed them a check way back when?

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  19. What positions in the church or relationships to church members do the developers of Red Ledges have?

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  20. I posted a link to this blog on the Mormon Newsroom facebook page on a posting about the U.'s speech referenced here....I was banned..."I am shocked that gambling is going on here"

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  21. the red ledges was bought out by ivory homes along with the crossings , together these two developments are worth well over 100 million dollars, both of them have several hundred high end lots, private golf courses, ect. One might ask where ivory homes. Magically came up with the money to acquire these developments right after 4. Years of recession on the housing market. the red ledges and crossings were well financed and both of them couldn't weather the storm, but out of the blue ivory homes comes out of nowhere and aquifers them both. one doesn't have to look real hard to realize the good ol lds church is. Backing ivory homes, ivory builds all the big wigs mansions and they are a starter home company. Just one more shady business the lds church is involved in, the tithe payers will get screwed and ivory homes will make millions off the backs of the tithe payers.

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  22. How else is the kingdom of God suppose to be built? By magic?

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  23. In the case of the LDS Kingdom of God, it was built by putting magic stones in a hat...:-)

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  24. Or in just about every religion building kingdoms where donkeys talk.a person can part the sea. A person can build a ship big enouhh to hold two of every animal. How amazing is that???? Think about it two of every kind of animal. It must have taken 100 years to seek them out from the various countries to find each kind! A kingdom in which blind people can be healed and the dead can be made alive. In fact I'd say magic stones sounds like a rather mundane and boring way to build a kingdom, don't you?

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  25. When one believes that reformed Egyptian can be translated to English by putting magic stones in a hat, we have to concede that every aspect of his religion is really hocus-pocus. To the gullible, everything is true.

    Now using magic stones may be boring and mundane to you, but they are quite effective in making fools part with their time and money. The growth of the LDS church is a testament to that.

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  26. I'd say believing in any religion requires belief in in the unbelievable.

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  27. Whoa, Thanks for taking time for sharing this article, it was excellent and very informative. Thanks for sharing.....Michael Shah (Specializes in identifying, financing, and managing real estate investments)

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  28. @ Anonymous (January 19, 2013 9:12 AM), if you haven't seen this video, it's worth a watch and addresses what you are talking about with Noah's Ark in a very funny way!:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_BzWUuZN5w

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    Replies
    1. This is also hilarious--Ricky Gervais reading a children's book about Noah's ark.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb2DyHRu-bY


      Delete
  29. The real problem is not the unbelievable. The real problem is that you reject the believable.

    Is there such a language as reformed Egyptian? No. Do you reject this fact? Yes.

    Did Joseph Smith teach that God is one? Yes. Did he reject this later? Yes.

    Did Joseph Smith teach that drinking wine is evil? Yes. Did he drink wine? Yes shortly before he died.

    Does DNA science say that the American Indians don't have Jewish blood, and can't be the Lamanites? Yes. Do you reject the findings of science? Yes.

    Does science support your teaching that Smith translated the Book of Abraham from the papyrus that your church possess? No. Do you reject the findings of science on the BoA? Yes.

    I could go on and on with examples. Anyone can believe in the unbelievable. But when you reject even that which is truly believable, we know YOU have a problem.

    PS: Didn't you ask earlier: "How else is the kingdom of God suppose to be built? By magic?"

    Well, now that you say your religion requires belief in the unbelievable, then that answers your question.

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  30. Orwell, I believe that we all came from Heaven therefore we all have decend from the same blood.

    I believe that science is only as accurate as the next discovery. Which is to say that science is constantly changing as it improves.

    I believe that with news reports being super inaccurate nowadays, that there is an almost 100% possibility that reports about Joseph Smith, especially considering the strong feelings of fears and hatred that people felt toward Joseph Smith, are inaccurate.

    I believe if you, Orwell, do not believe in the BofM or the BofA then you shouldn't believe in the Bible or in there being a God. Because if you don't believe the Indians are decendents of the Jews you don't believe in the Bible, because everyone ultimately would be decendents of Jews, or Jesus.

    I believe that science hasn't caught up with the advanced world that Heavenly Father and Jesus lives in. And when we do catch up no one will doubt that they exist. At that point we will understand why it isn't magical.

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    1. Anonymous wrote: "I believe that science hasn't caught up with the advanced world that Heavenly Father and Jesus lives in. And when we do catch up no one will doubt that they exist. At that point we will understand why it isn't magical."

      My reply:
      When inventing a god, the most important thing is to claim that because faith is essential, god remains invisible, inaudible and nearly imperceptible except if you really dig deep into your feelings. Assign any good feeling as lovingly given to a person by this invisible, inaudible god. Otherwise, people will become skeptical when god appears to no one, is silent and does almost nothing except cause feelings.

      Delete
    2. Very, very well said, Anonymous

      Delete
  31. Davit T.,

    If you do not believe in God you would make this website about how you don't believe there is a God, or Jesus. But, according to your website, it is the Mormon God, or what you consider the Mormon God is wrong.

    Too bad for you that you don't believe in God. I'm guessing your a pretty sad, sorry man!

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    1. Stop dictating what I should and shouldn't believe or do. My blog is exactly what I want. If you don't enjoy it, please go find one you do and stop trying to change this one. It seems you have a need to convert me and others here. Not a fruitful endeavor.

      Delete
  32. @ David T. I'm not dictating, I'm stating an opinion. Is this site a site only for your fans? Is this site only for people that agree with you?

    I'm not trying to convert so much as give the other side of the opinion. If people are reading this sight that want to know more about being Mormon, I feel it is only fair they read both sides. Not just one side. Are you afraid for people to read the other side?

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    1. Yes. I'm so afraid that I tell all of my followers to avoid the internet. The adversary is out there on pro-LDS sites, lurking among those pornogospelites called Apostles. I'm very afraid of them. So much so that I will from now forward stop linking to pro-LDS sites like I have been doing in the past. Mormonthink should consider stopping from linking to official LDS sites and to FAIR because it harms us if people actually get sources to both sides. We prefer a monopoly.

      /sarcasm off
      (hope you got the hint.)

      Delete
  33. @David T. while you may link, you preface it with why it is wrong, or what is wrong regarding the information that the link leads to. No hints, just opposing opinions.

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  34. @ Anonymous

    What you dont realize is that you arent doing any of us a favor by posting your side of the story. I am presuming many of us have been mormon or are already familiar with mormon thinking. You arent presenting with anything new or helpful. Your explanations read as twisted as most Mormon apologetics. Speaking for myself, I find your tone rude and egocentric and, sorry, brainwashed. I really dislike reading any of your posts. Your presentation is quite distasteful to me. I avoid people like you. Not because I have to avoid disagreement, but to avoid the rudeness. I am wondering if anyone else feels this way.

    And, it appears now that Dave has somewhat called you on the carpet , your tone has changed a bit. Hopefully you will back off some. I think people come on to Daves site to get his insights. We arent looking to be educated by you. There are many other places people can get the mormon viewpoint. And, as far as I can tell, it chases them away. And, you successfully have confirmed for me why I have left the church. You dont make me come to it.

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  35. Did I give you the impression that I was trying to do you a favor? Because that was not that I was trying to do. In fact I have stated why I am responding to this blog, and other blogs and websites that are downing the Mormon church.

    It is your opinion that my explanations are twisted. That doesn't mean that everyone agrees with you, or that everyone that happens on this website is going to comment, whether in agreement or disagreement. No one can make that assumption.

    In regards to your opinion that I'm egocentric, again that is a matter of opinion. In my opinion David T. and others that follow this blog are egocentric.

    I find what you wrote, and others have written rude and distasteful, especially when it comes to making fun of the church or people that follow the church teachings.

    I find it amusing that you say you avoid people like me. Because you may very well be best friends with someone like me and not know it. The perceptions one takes away from what is written will be totally different from the perceptions one walks away with when you meet someone in person.

    If you are reading this website for Dave's insights, you would only read his insights. Your real intentions are only too obvious, you are looking for people who are already in agreement with you. Otherwise you'd never bother looking at the comments.

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    1. Ms. Anon, the problem people are having with your comments is that you disagree with Dave's argument without refuting the evidence he presents. Your disagreement then takes the form of hasty generalizations and ad hominem criticisms about Dave's bias, without acknowledging your own. Dave's experience with the Church is not your experience. Both of your experiences are true. This is Dave's blog about issues that exist. Sticking your head spiritual head in the sand and ignoring what is presented is your choice, but trying to then tell everyone here how immature and hateful they are is just another reminder of the things they dislike about the Church, which causes emotions to escalate.

      Sure, Dave is dictating: that's what blog's are for. This starts a conversation. I would suggest again that you revise your technique at disagreeing, use rational argument methods to refute his claims, not emotional reactions, and "but he said / she said" arguments. Or start your own blog. I'd join and be a civil commentor.

      Cheers

      Delete
    2. Actually I'm reading his blog because I read he left the church through other blogs, and wanted to show him some Mormony love from an unworthy, apostate, active Mormon! So now I follow his blog. That's not egocentric, that's just plain eccentric. And no, I'm not looking for people to agree with me. Rather there's no one who agrees with me, but I hope people get into agreement with God!

      :-)

      Delete
  36. Debating a mormon is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon just knocks over the pieces, craps on the board and struts around like it is victorious.

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  37. Lesson....people that play chess with pigeons deserve to be knocked around and crapped on! Lol!

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  38. matejoh,

    It is all about perspective.

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  39. Great digging, look forward to reading more.

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  40. I just thought I'd note that the law is given so that wicked mouths may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. For does God not strike dumb those who teach evil? Are the wicked not put to silence when they hear the truth, and it moves them?

    What's more, the enemy may be roaring like a lion, but that's not the perspective we should be having. For our God who is the lion of the tribe of Judah has an even greater roar! And that roar is in fact ALSO coming from that same source Dieter says we ought to turn away from. Not that all anti-mormon literature is good, but that out from among it shall come the truth. For God can turn all things around to be for or against Him as He pleases. Is this not true?

    In Isaiah 29 it says that those who murmur shall learn doctrine, and the house of Jacob shall not be ashamed. I tell you now that I believe this will happen the day of the church's repentance. Just saying, sorry if I say it too much.

    P.S. I think it is best to live in a very modest home, but I do not judge Dieter for his choice of living. Although it makes me think of him as a Pharisee, he is still my favorite apostle. I love him as I would love a brother.

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  41. Hmmm..... I don't propose to know exactly what Uchtdorf worth is, however, he was an airline captain since age 29 in 1970 odd and Lufthansa pilots are very well paid. Then the man was head of training, which is a VP role in any corporation and then chief pilot and head of flight operations. These roles today pay several million a year. So the most likely scenario was that after being called an apostle , and realizing that he'd have to live full time in Utah, he probably sold his expensive home/homes in Germany and bought two here.

    On top of him likely being a millionaire as head of flight operations for the one of the world's largest airlines, Germany property prices are mostly dearer than US homes, plus the Euro is worth more. So again, most likely scenario is that he sold one home in Germany and with that could buy two expensive ones in Utah. Nothing odd about that nor does it mean that he used his stipend to buy a home -however generous iit is, which it should be seeing they do oversee some 7Billion or more in income per year.

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